Like I said above, I think the optimal situation is to divide it into different categories (pretty much exactly like the official Xian Weapon! contest did) before simply voting between the winners of each. Everyone is happy, nobody is excluded, and I don’t perceive anyone to be at an unfair disadvantage. MOC, 3D art, 2D art, etc. (or a combination of those) would all be valid.
I personally see very little distinction because “art” is extremely vague in and of itself. Is that Hand-Drawn? Computer art? What distinguishes a screenshot of a 3D model from a drawing that resembles one? I could even consider an excessive photoshop job to be art (rightly so, if it’s well done).
I would like to see as little restriction of mediums as is feasibly possible, myself.
Well, our information will likely differ seeing as I’ve spoken to a lot of Bionicle fans in the past few years. I don’t know anyone irl who owns a 3d printer, but I’ve heard numerous accounts of people who do; people who would enter this sort of contest.[quote=“Toa_Heatwave, post:185, topic:51546”]
I don’t think it’s exactly fair to use the Chrome Hau as a counterpoint, but my answer would be that, like 3D-printed pieces, that mask would be easier to acquire after the current situation has calmed down, just as 3D piece would be.
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Your original argument made it sound like that’s what you were referring to, sorry.
Here’s the thing - things may calm down by then, but that doesn’t mean every economy is going to be better. That’s going to take a while, who knows how long for some countries. Should we wait until every nation affected recovers?[quote=“Toa_Heatwave, post:185, topic:51546”]
is it really that much of a big deal to wait a few months, until things likely start getting slightly better, in order to give everybody a chance to participate as fully as possible, in all ways, not just 3D parts?
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There’s no way you can know this. As well, you may not consider the amount of time to be a big deal, but I definitely do, and I think many other interested parties do too. Greg may quit interacting with TTV in six years. There’s less of a chance he’ll do that in three.[quote=“Toa_Heatwave, post:185, topic:51546”]
came very close to actually doing so, particularly when I suggested that we hold design contests for undesigned masks first, prior to MOC contests, so that everyone could then be given an identical 3D model to print from.
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There you’ve got a limit on creative freedom since every moc would essentially end up with the same face. If someone models the winning mask design as soon as it’s confirmed - which will likely happen - someone can rush to get it printed and use it in their moc. There’s no reason to implement a rule like this since it means that the model TTV produces - the one they distribute - is the model they officially approve of.
The mask contest will probably contain all sorts of different entries - clay, brick-built, drawing, 3d model, photoshop project - and the winner might not get a model until some time later. It also means every model would be waiting on the 3d printed mask to exist before they submit it, which for some people would take a while before they actually could - like the ones with limited or no immediate access to a 3d printer to begin with. This solution doesn’t really solve any of the problems that exist and only makes TTV seem selfish.
That’s made under the presumption that more than just 2d drawings will be allowed
The rule literally says “pieces”; I’m pretty sure it’s the latter. Having a limit on molds but not pieces defeats the purpose of the rule in the first place as you could still pump out any number of those custom parts.
As someone who was a diehard fan of Bionicle back in the day, i’m very excited to participate!
Small question though:
So what about complexity? i mean, if i build Gaaki for example (with spear and shield), but it doesn’t resemble the other 2 Toa Hagah in body shape, does it still count?
I’m not participating in the management of this so don’t consider anything I say with any authority here.
BUT, imo from what I can gleam from the rules you’re totally fine building whatever you think represents the character best.
WITH THAT SAID, keep in mind the community will be voting on what they believe best represents a canon visual for the character. So while you’re free to build Gaaki however you please you also the run the risk of deviating too far from what others perceive as canon and might get outvoted for another entry that did go with the metru build. So it’s totally up to you as to what you think has the best chance at winning.
That’s fine, and I’m sure you’re right, but it’s also not the case for everyone. And I’m not saying that I think everyone should have access to a 3D-printer, just that the rules should reflect the fact that very many people will not, and therefore not give a numerical advantage to those who do by allowing them to use a higher number of unique parts than is really necessary, considering that we both agree on the fact that most MOCs will only require two.
I don’t know–again, I don’t have the experience to say whether or not things will improve soon or in a long time. But there is a significant chance that–simply due to the fact that the world economy will collapse if restrictions are not lifted soon–at least something will begin to improve by late summer, only a month or two after these contests are currently set to begin. I still can’t see the harm in taking an extra month or two to really hammer out the rules and do more polls to see exactly where the community stands on certain characters, rules, etc., just so we don’t feel like we’re charging ahead without thinking about real-world circumstances.
I think we may be on two different pages again–to reiterate, I have no issue with the contests taking place over the course of three years, instead of being spaced out over six. I fail to see how waiting an extra month or two to begin the contests, just so we can get everything straight and agreed upon, will impact the length of time it takes to get through the contests…we’re talking a difference of one or two months.
As opposed to the current rules for characters with undesigned masks, where the MOC is supposed to be built without a Kanohi, thereby making them all have “the same face” anyway, until the mask design is approved? My suggestion to have the mask contest first was intended to support the idea that–once the mask shape is canonized and an official model of it made from the winning entry–every MOC of the character would have an identical mask, thereby eliminating the bias of voters towards MOCs with a fancy mask that hasn’t even been canonized yet.
Obviously, my ideas are not perfect, and I don’t want to make it seem as though I know better than the judges. I am fine with the ultimate decision to do the MOC contests first, but I don’t believe that my suggestion would have, as you say, limited creative freedom in any way, as the MOC contest is meant to be about the body of the character, not the mask.
Just wanted to point out that even if the mask were canonized first (an idea which I think has its benefits and detriments) - any model made of it would not be any more official than, say, a 3D print of the Olisi. Even if that 3D print appears in the winning MOC, that print does not become an official piece, in the same sense that Certavus is not an official lego set. It would be official canon, but unless the Lego Group were to actually make a Kanohi mold of the design (and LOL to that) it will not be an official 3D model.
If you’ve ever seen the agreement that contestants had to sign to get stuff into the Rahi/DH books, you’ll know what I mean - even those designs were only allowed to be photographed and used in marketing. It would be copyright infringement for Lego to sell you a Tahtorak (at least if the build matched the winning entry).
This would effectively ban any purist from entering, though. So how things currently are is better, I think.
In regards to the whole artwork part of the contest - I’ve read the first post again and am not sure I quite understand it:
Does this mean the entry mustn’t have a mask or simply that the mask used doesn’t matter? I’m guessing the second?
Why exactly is this limited to drawings/necessary at all? Just curious here. Is it to deal with the concerns of 3D modelers about legal reproduction of the mask by multiple parties? Which I guess would explain why it’s 2D and not 3D.
Though let’s say someone builds a custom head out of Lego pieces and this MOC wins the first contest - shouldn’t this same custom head at least automatically also be entered into the second contest as an additional option to vote for? And just in this case because it is the winning model and uses a custom head. Of course it’s already official by this point because it’s used on the MOC, but since there’s no copyright involved I’m wondering why the art contest is terribly necessary in the first place in that case?
But that’s just me thinking aloud, not trying to provoke another debate.
Where should 3D Modelers post their permission to use their 3D parts? Because there should be some overview to see which 3D Parts are allowed to use.
And does it count if i have a text message from a 3D modeler in which he gives permission and i post that text from him? Because i dont think he is going to make a post for it.
I recently downloaded blender and intend to give 3-D modeling a shot. While I highly doubt much will come out of it, especially since I intend to keep my focus on photography, I’m cool with my upcoming stuff being used for the contests if people happen to be interested.
Of course, of course…I just meant “official” as in “this is the model everyone who makes a MOC of this character for the contest must use.”
Not necessarily, since the MOC contest is solely about the body of the character (keep in mind that I’m only talking about characters whose masks have no official appearance yet–I’ve never been talking about characters whose masks we don’t know). That’s why the current rules state that MOCs for characters with an unknown mask shape are going to be made without the mask first.
Essentially, the rules are what I suggested in the initial poll topic, just in the opposite order. My thinking was that if we could get the mask shape canonized first, and an “official” model made for that, the MOC contest would then be free of bias, because voters would know that either the MOC is using the “official” mask shape, or that the one used in it is a placeholder that will eventually be replaced with the “official mask.” That way, when it came time to vote on the MOC, no one would be inclined to vote on mask alone, since masks are such an identifying feature.
But, really, the outcome is going to be the same regardless, since the MOCs in question will be built without masks. I’m splitting hairs
Again, the only one with any merit in the contest is the mask. The other three must be weapons, and the pool of free weapon designs is pitiful compared to the mask one. I seriously doubt any entry utilizing all three would win due to the fact that it has three, especially given how absolutely picky people are about the idea of a single part being allowed.[quote=“Toa_Heatwave, post:220, topic:51546”]
I still can’t see the harm in taking an extra month or two to really hammer out the rules and do more polls to see exactly where the community stands on certain characters, rules, etc., just so we don’t feel like we’re charging ahead without thinking about real-world circumstances.
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I don’t think TTV is going to talk to every major community leader affected just to have their opinions overturned by five people on the boards. At this point in time everyone has a specific amount of time to build each character, totaling in about two years to build Marendar. That’s a long while.
I comprehend that, I’m saying I disagree with you on the level of importance and I think other people will as well.[quote=“Toa_Heatwave, post:220, topic:51546”]
I fail to see how waiting an extra month or two to begin the contests, just so we can get everything straight and agreed upon, will impact the length of time it takes to get through the contests…we’re talking a difference of one or two months.
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If it’s consistent, it’ll take six years. I kinda don’t want that.
Of course, this all depends on whether TTV will actually be consistent or adhere to the time limit they’re using for the first contest, which understandably they haven’t commented on.[quote=“Toa_Heatwave, post:220, topic:51546”]
As opposed to the current rules for characters with undesigned masks, where the MOC is supposed to be built without a Kanohi, thereby making them all have “the same face” anyway, until the mask design is approved?
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Where the heck does it say without a Kanohi? I can’t find that anywhere in the rules.[quote=“Toa_Heatwave, post:220, topic:51546”]
My suggestion to have the mask contest first was intended to support the idea that–once the mask shape is canonized and an official model of it made from the winning entry–every MOC of the character would have an identical mask, thereby eliminating the bias of voters towards MOCs with a fancy mask that hasn’t even been canonized yet.
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There’s no way you can regulate this.
This forces - not allows, forces - everyone to have a 3d printer available and forces them to include a 3d printed piece in their moc. That… That ain’t gonna fly.[quote=“Toa_Heatwave, post:225, topic:51546”]
But, really, the outcome is going to be the same regardless, since the MOCs in question will be built without masks. I’m splitting hairs
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No, they won’t be? I still can’t find where you’re getting that from.
I do have to admit that this is a good point. I also want to add something that I think may have been unclear earlier, which is that none of what I’m saying currently was really in reference to characters whose masks we simply do not know (like Orde, Zaria, etc.), just for characters whose mask shapes are undefined. I thought it would be a little too complicated if people were submitting a bunch of Helryx MOCs with various 3D-printed placeholder masks, as voters might be confused and vote for the mask they thought was best, rather than the MOC, only for the mask they voted for to be overridden by the canon mask shape. That’s why I thought it would be easier to have the mask contest first.
Again, I think we’re at a bit of a disconnect. I’m not suggesting that we add an extra month or two between contests, only that we wait an extra month or two for the contests to officially begin. Essentially, take the point where we are right now and push it back until September, perhaps, just so we can see if everyone’s a little more free to get the parts they need to get. It’s mostly for the benefit of the first couple of contests, which I’m worried might not be as fruitful if everyone has a lot on their plate.
I’m referring to this:
I italicized the part I’m referring to. For these characters, the MOCs being entered won’t have a mask (or perhaps they will be allowed to have a placeholder one, but with the knowledge that it’ll be changed later on). That’s what I meant when replying to your point about creative freedom being limited, because the rules already stipulate that those characters will “have the same face…”
There actually is a way. I didn’t mention it before, but my idea was that either MOCs could be entered with a 3D printout of the “official mask,” or with no mask at all, whereupon, once the winning entry is chosen, the MOC could be provided with a model of the mask to take an “official picture” of it.
Is it feasible? I don’t know, but like I said to @Gilahu above, I’m less concerned about this particular point. The current rules do basically adhere to what my stated ideal is, except that the stages are reversed, so though I might think my solution is more unbiased, I can admit that it will all basically result in the same outcome, so I’m fine with that.
Yeah, that’s likely how it’s gonna work. Is it perfect? No.[quote=“Toa_Heatwave, post:227, topic:51546”]
I’m not suggesting that we add an extra month or two between contests, only that we wait an extra month or two for the contests to officially begin.
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You miss my point.
I’m making that statement under the presumption that TTV will do this or at least adhere to it slightly. They haven’t commented, so there’s no definite answer.[quote=“Toa_Heatwave, post:227, topic:51546”]
I italicized the part I’m referring to.
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Nowhere does it say that they “won’t have a mask” only that the mask and/or weapon included will not be canon for them. As well, custom masks used on the most popular entries may influence the art contest a fair bit, which I think is a very good idea.
And I’m fine with that. My only real concern was that people voting might not have thoroughly read the rules, so we could have a situation where something like this happens:
I look at various entries for Helryx without having fully read the rules, and see one that has a really great MOC, but a mask I don’t like.
I look at another Helryx MOC that maybe doesn’t have as good a body, but has a unique mask that I like, which I think will become the canon mask if the MOC wins.
I vote for the second option, and it wins, but the mask I liked is replaced by a different mask, meaning that I could’ve voted for the other MOC with the body I preferred.
Will that happen? I don’t know–I probably even doubt it will, because I trust that everyone who votes will read the rules, and believe that the judges will make the proper information easily visible. I just thought that having the mask contest first would eliminate the potential for confusion.
But again, as I said a little while ago, I realize that I’m sort of splitting hairs…
