BIONICLE G1 Canon Contests Discussion & Questions

[Gilahu]

@Eljay

I mainly ask this because, if someone recolors a part into a translucent hue, the only way to replicate it physically would be with a resin replica. On that note, are those allowed?

They are allowed. We have a section that discusses them.

@Eljay

Can pats be painted into non-Lego colors? The Toa Hagah will need metallic armor- could someone, say, make a Bomonga with metallic purple armor?

We don’t recommend painting pieces into non-LEGO colors, however it is allowed.

Am I really just reading this? What the actual…? Allowing 3D printing and painting in general is bad enough, but this…

We’re talking about MOCing contests here. Also with regards to what other people said above, what’s the point of a MOCing contest if not being able to replicate the builds with official parts in official colours which you can for the most part easily obtain for not too much money?

If you just want pictures for BS01, why not make it a pure artwork contest? Much more leeway there, much less costs involved for everyone and I’d also imagine not as many people would be fundamentally disappointed. Because you need to take liberties to translate art into MOCs and no one would actually expect artwork to be translatable into a physical model 1:1. Hence far more options for both purist and non-purist builds.

@Eljay

Honestly, a common theme I’m seeing among people in this topic is an attempt to thwart people from voting for themselves. There are these efforts to control what people vote for before the contest have been begun. Who cares if someone votes for an Orde with a Rode? Or Pouks with a Kaukau? Is that not up to the individual to decide? Is confirming these appearances not the point?

This is entirely true, but people don’t work that way. Especially the head/mask of a character is a very important, if not the most important detail. Might be just me, but I already see the community (figuratively) going to arms over the simple question over which mask a specific character should wear.

Best solution I can think of: Just don’t mention mask power anywhere for characters with an unknown one. That way people can decide each on their own what they want. Orde wears something that looks like a Sanok? Could be a Sanok. Could also be something else shaped like a Sanok. Toa Hagah? Well, we know their mask powers, but we don’t know if their masks’ shapes actually match the power. We don’t need to canonically know that. Everyone can decide that on their own.

@Tarkur

“Your moc should be able to stand on a shelf together with other G1 one sets without looking to out of place or to the point that it can be mistaken for a regular Action figure.”

Couldn’t agree more here.

Though that’s something we can only hope matters to enough people - I’m not saying that it has to matter to them, but I’d ask everyone to really consider this for themselves before any voting takes place.
For example imagine some video game series that’s been around for a while - first part decades ago was pixel art, most modern part is 3D 4k. How would it look if you put a character from the most recent game exactly the way they look into the first game? Would look weird, right? But what if you instead made a modern, much more detailed pixel art character and put it in the first game? Would work better, right?

Of course that’s an extreme example, but it’s the same core problematic. There are amazing modern MOCs around, which are worlds beyond anything we ever saw in G1. But they’re so good, they’d feel out of place back there. The goal for these contests in my eyes is to take modern building techniques we can pull off due to modern parts, mix those with old G1 parts and create a Technic-heavy G1 character which fits right into that world we all care for.

[Eljay]

@Gilahu

Am I really just reading this? What the actual…? Allowing 3D printing and painting in general is bad enough, but this…

You are, in fact, reading that. If it makes you feel any better, LEGO completely signed off on painted pieces during their Mask Maker Challenge contest in 2015.

@Gilahu

We’re talking about MOCing contests here. Also with regards to what other people said above, what’s the point of a MOCing contest if not being able to replicate the builds with official parts in official colours which you can for the most part easily obtain for not too much money?

The point of a MOCing contest is to build what people believe should be the representation of a character. The rules allow for a great deal of reproducibility, but at no point will that ever be guaranteed for everyone. If your goal is to recreate every character and creature from G1, then I will be curious to see how you come to terms with Charger’s arm blades.

@Gilahu

If you just want pictures for BS01, why not make it a pure artwork contest? Much more leeway there, much less costs involved for everyone and I’d also imagine not as many people would be fundamentally disappointed. Because you need to take liberties to translate art into MOCs and no one would actually expect artwork to be translatable into a physical model 1:1. Hence far more options for both purist and non-purist builds.

Because we want as much of the community to be involved as possible. We’re not going to just exclude arguably the largest part of any LEGO community - MOCists - from a LEGO contest because you don’t want to paint pieces.

@Gilahu

This is entirely true, but people don’t work that way. Especially the head/mask of a character is a very important, if not the most important detail. Might be just me, but I already see the community (figuratively) going to arms over the simple question over which mask a specific character should wear.

You see individuals voicing their concerns. Up in arms is hyperbole and will very easily be hashed out during the contests.

@Gilahu

Of course that’s an extreme example, but it’s the same core problematic. There are amazing modern MOCs around, which are worlds beyond anything we ever saw in G1. But they’re so good, they’d feel out of place back there. The goal for these contests in my eyes is to take modern building techniques we can pull off due to modern parts, mix those with old G1 parts and create a Technic-heavy G1 character which fits right into that world we all care for.

Then vote for entries that meet your criteria.

We will not be implementing a rule dictating that MOCs must conform to a Generation 1 style. Period. End of story. If you would like me to elaborate as to why, I will be more than happy to do so. But any such rule will not be happening.

[Tarkur]

@Eljay

creature from G1, then I will be curious to see how you come to terms with Charger’s arm blades.

Regarding Chargers arms, modified Tahu Nuva swords as for someone trying to recreate all contest winning creations I’ll advice you to check out reddit u/legodetective who has already cracked most dhs and been slowly moving into the Rahi builds.

@Eljay

If you would like me to elaborate as to why, I will be more than happy to do so.

Then please do. I love a good explanation.

[Methaxx]

Couldn’t find any info on this in the topic, sorry if it’s already been asked - are Hero Factory-specific pieces allowed (i.e. chest armor pieces with the H symbol on them)?

[Toa-of-Snow]

@Eljay

Because we want as much of the community to be involved as possible. We’re not going to just exclude arguably the largest part of any LEGO community - MOCists - from a LEGO contest because you don’t want to paint pieces.

That’s fair, but it does raise the question of why the first part of the contest is MOC-exclusive, as opposed to allowing artwork to compete against MOCs in the first phase instead. If, as you have said, the purpose is to create “what people believe should be the representation of a character” - and are additionally allowing 3D printing and unobtainable colours - then MOC’s are not really at any disadvantage to art in this scenario.

If the goal is to create these “visual depictions” in favor of realistic set designs (which I think is absolutely fine, as long as it’s clearly communicated) - then I can’t understand why artwork wouldn’t be allowed as an equal competitor.

@Methaxx

Couldn’t find any info on this in the topic, sorry if it’s already been asked - are Hero Factory-specific pieces allowed (i.e. chest armor pieces with the H symbol on them)?

I’d be surprised if they’re disallowed, but I know that I won’t be voting for Artakha to have Preston Stormer’s face, that’s for sure.

@Tarkur

Regarding Chargers arms, modified Tahu Nuva swords

How did these get approved for the original contest? Did they slip through, or was it legitimately permitted?

[Tarkur]

@Toa-of-Snow

How did these get approved for the original contest?

Who knows?

[Eljay]

@Tarkur

Then please do. I love a good explanation.

To sum it up, the G1 aesthetic doesn’t exist.

G1 has had aesthetics. 2001 - 2003, 2004 - 2005, and then… they all got mixed. You can’t narrow down an actual “aesthetic” for G1 overall because it doesn’t exist. Pistons? Gears? G2 has those.

The look and feel of a set from 2001, or 2003, is completely different than that of one from 2008, or 2009. They’re just not comparable. So how are we expected to make a hard and fast rule that states you must stick to an aesthetic that doesn’t exist? There isn’t something consistent you can point to.

And further, why would we restrict people like that? Why would we decide so much when it should be left up to the people voting for it? If you don’t want a Helryx made entirely out of system and CCBS - don’t vote for it!

@Methaxx

Couldn’t find any info on this in the topic, sorry if it’s already been asked - are Hero Factory-specific pieces allowed (i.e. chest armor pieces with the H symbol on them)?

Completely allowed.

@Toa-of-Snow

That’s fair, but it does raise the question of why the first part of the contest is MOC-exclusive, as opposed to allowing artwork to compete against MOCs in the first phase instead. If, as you have said, the purpose is to create “what people believe should be the representation of a character” - and are additionally allowing 3D printing and unobtainable colours - then MOC’s are not really at any disadvantage to art in this scenario.

I actually initially wanted art to be included in the first half. We had wanted essentially a free-for-all of works to be considered. However, it is a bit unfair to put a MOC - something with very physical constraints - up against a piece of artwork, which wouldn’t be hindered quite as much. So this is the compromise, and it is one of many.

Also, it can be understood to a degree as to why it’s so MOC-centric. Because it’s based on the physical product, AKA the backbone of the entire theme. It’s LEGO pieces. It’s a LEGO theme. It makes sense. But again, we wanted an art portion because that’s a huge part of it. But its inclusion isn’t exactly how we initially sought it out.

[Toa-of-Snow]

Well that’s fair, I suppose, but if there was some compromise to allow art to compete (perhaps like the Xian Weapons that had different “divisions” - but then people vote between the top ones of each at the end) I’d be super keen for that, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. The “free-for-all” of works sounds like a super exciting and inclusive community event, in my opinion.

And especially with the amount of editing, 3D printing, digital programs, etc. allowed, the MOCs are practically artwork now anyway. If I can 3D design and print my characters mask and weapons and basically all the important bits in whatever colour and finish I want, why can’t I draw them, too?

Also, a MOC has an advantage that art doesn’t - dimension. If I build one MOC, I can photograph it from 500 different angles in 500 different poses, so long as the figure is flexible enough - but with art I have to start again from scratch each time (unless it’s a 3D render, but then it’s basically modelling anyway) - so I don’t think art would really be at any advantage over the MOC in practice, myself.

I don’t know. In the end, I’m happy with whatever you all settle on - but I would quietly implore you to reconsider this one.

[Gilahu]

@Eljay

how you come to terms with Charger’s arm blades

I’m actually still wondering how that got waved through. Though I haven’t yet met a single person who said “this is completely fine”. The average reaction I’ve seen is shrugging it off or calling it heresy.

@Eljay

We will not be implementing a rule dictating that MOCs must conform to a Generation 1 style. Period.

I’m not saying you should. What I wrote before is merely an appeal to everyone who has a vote to give to at least give the matter a thought.

@Eljay

G1 has had aesthetics. 2001 - 2003, 2004 - 2005, and then… they all got mixed.

Actually, while proportion-wise it of course doesn’t always quite fit, I’m personally of the opinion that from '04 on everything definitely looked like it was from the same world. So I’d personally say you could call that “the” G1 aesthetic.
That said, I’m personally not a defender of the hardcore G1 aesthetic. I’m personally favoring a technic-heavy style somewhere between CCBS and G1, as I see it.

---

And I’m sorry to sound provocative here, but

@Eljay

Also, it can be understood to a degree as to why it’s so MOC-centric. Because it’s based on the physical product, AKA the backbone of the entire theme. It’s LEGO pieces. It’s a LEGO theme. It makes sense.

So why are techniques involving non-Lego allowed? Promoting it not being Lego pieces? Promoting it not being a physical product everyone can easily get, the backbone of the theme for most of us?

[Wolk]

@darkbrick999

Can pats be painted into non-Lego colors? The Toa Hagah will need metallic armor- could someone, say, make a Bomonga with metallic purple armor?

As it so happens, there is something of a metallic purple - 146 Sand Violet Metallic, only used in some old watch(es).

Since there’s a lot of obscure colors out there I suppose I could drop this here, Ryan Howerter’s list of LEGO colors:
The List: Color List
Flickr gallery: Individual Colors | Flickr

[TichePotato]

@Gilahu

@Eljay

how you come to terms with Charger’s arm blades

I’m actually still wondering how that got waved through. Though I haven’t yet met a single person who said “this is completely fine”. The average reaction I’ve seen is shrugging it off or calling it heresy.

This is completely fine.

Seriously though, trolling aside, I’m fine with it. I’m all for artistic freedom in the field of MOCing, which I believe is an artform. Is, as a friend put it, “mutiliating” a piece more on the questionable side of things? Yeah.

But people also sell literal vomit as art. My predominant areas of focus and a good chunk of the artistic mediums I work within are seen as lesser by the wider artistic community, regardless of the result they’re able to produce.

[MaskMaker]

Hello Everyone. I have been talking with a lot of people for a while and I am re-considering my decision to not allow my 3D modeled creations to be in this contest.

Therefore, in a sudden change of events, I’d like to officially announce that i am reversing my decision of banning my 3D modeling creations from participating in the contest.

What does this mean?

It means all of my masks, weapons, other items, etc. are permitted for use in this contest (with proper credit of course). These creations are free to download and are available for 3D printing on my Thingiverse.

I am hoping my contributions to this contest will help to bring about new creativity and imaginations to the table.

For everyone who have given me continuous support for my creations, thank you so much.

I look forward to seeing what people come up with!

[Lost_Head]

Could you please post a link to your thingiverse? I’m having trouble finding it.

[WholesomeGadunka]

You keep denying something and then reaffirming it in the next sentence, and it’s confusing me. Do you or do you not want contest entries to reflect a safe, “fit in” G1 appearance? That’s gatekeeping. And it’s not necessarily a bad thing, but recognize that that’s what you’re doing. Now I don’t care by what standards you plan to vote for any moc but don’t tell me I have to as well. The second you try to turn this into a rule we have a problem. First of all, we already have this rule-based recommendation for entries:

@Eljay

5.We encourage your entry to be recognizably within the BIONICLE world.

That’s enough. That sets a fair minimum; it says that whatever you’re building, most bionicle fans should be able to look at it and understand it’s a bionicle moc. Not that it has to fit in its toa team, not that it must be simple enough to look like a set, just recognizable. You want to push it further than that and you’re talking about something inherently unenforceable, at least not if self consistent rules matter.

“Your moc should be able to stand on a shelf together with other G1 sets without looking out of place” - do you have any idea how absurdly subjective that is? You keep mentioning the “canon aesthetic” or “Bionicle aesthetic” as if it were an agreed upon universal standard. It’s not. You can bring up whatever examples you want, but say I think Nikila and that Tuyet moc look just fine in G1 - again, don’t assume you speak for anyone but yourself. What are you going to do about it? Nothing. Say I personally imagine Artakha to look much smoother and more advanced in build than anything remotely seen in G1 because he’s the godbuilder of the universe; so be it. It’s entirely subjective how far a moc can go before becoming too un-G1, whether that means going beyond too many ccbs/sloped system parts or just being too “complex” to look right next to an official set. Your vision of G1 doesn’t trump mine. There is no concrete guideline that would be fair to put into rules about this; the only way forward is the entire point of the contest: vote. The entire community, not you alone or you and a vocal minority, will decide what looks Bionicle enough to deserve winning.

The chance that something you personally don’t want canonized is a reality you have to accept. I’m sorry, but the time to argue against this ended when this contest was voted to start. But even then, can we please at least pretend that the average voter is not so dumb as to pick something that unacceptable as the winner? I have to assume that anyone bothering to vote in an art contest for a franchise 10 years dead cares at least somewhat for their vision of what Bionicle means.

[Toa_Heatwave]

I’d like to address something that I believe has been buried by recent debates

@Eljay

Generally speaking, if you don’t have a printer, you can likely gain access to one from a library or other means.

Not to sound too critical, but I would not say that the average personally is “generally likely” to have access to a nearby 3D printer. I’m almost certain that not all libraries have one…there are many across the world who do, but it’s not guaranteed.

Additionally–and this is something I have mentioned before–I think it is vital that we consider the current crisis the world is facing. Many countries have imposed strict lockdowns that would prevent members from leaving their homes in order to seek out a 3D printer. While this obviously won’t last forever, we have no idea how long it will last at this time, and the first contest is set to begin in just over two months.

There is a high probability that lockdowns will still be in place by June…meaning that, for those members who would want to use 3D printed parts for a Helryx MOC, those who have personal 3D printers, or the ability to spend money on universally available ones, will be at a remarkable advantage in the variety of parts that they can use. I don’t know what, if anything can be done about this, but I think it’s a disparity that needs addressing. 3D parts come with an inherent divide between those who can afford to make them and those who can’t, and I’m not certain that I’m entirely comfortable with how liberally the rules allow their use…

Also, on the topic of 3D parts, I’d like to thank you, @MaskMaker, for changing your mind. I still believe that you are entitled to do whatever you want with your creations, but I think this decision will open up a lot of opportunity for people who don’t have much access to 3D parts (myself included, perhaps). Your creations will be a very valuable resource, and I personally hope that you at least submit a couple of them to be canonized…

[Gilahu]

@TichePotato

Seriously though, trolling aside, I’m fine with it. I’m all for artistic freedom in the field of MOCing, which I believe is an artform. Is, as a friend put it, “mutiliating” a piece more on the questionable side of things? Yeah.

I mean, just to be clear again - I believe I said as much in the original vote topic, too: Normally people can do whatever they want with their parts and use whichever parts they like for their MOCs. It’s their creation, that’s completely fine. Maybe I don’t like it, but that doesn’t matter because I can just ignore it and people who enjoy can enjoy.

The big problem comes around when I can’t ignore it - because it is now canon. And this is the sole reason why I’m arguing about it.

---

This whole contest business won’t give us anything we actually need, and I’m still of the opinion that we’d be better off without it. Since it’s undeniably going to happen, though, the least that could be done would be making sure that everyone can build the entries with unmodified Lego pieces only.
I honestly really don’t understand how that isn’t the core rule upon which the whole contest is built. Like, it just completely escapes me. That doesn’t add up. No offense, but I’m sitting here just trying to figure out how anyone could even consider doing it otherwise. I haven’t yet heard a good answer to that.

[Ghid]

@Toa_Heatwave

Not to sound too critical, but I would not say that the average personally is “generally likely” to have access to a nearby 3D printer. I’m almost certain that not all libraries have one…there are many across the world who do, but it’s not guaranteed.

Yes, which is why Eljay didn’t say “Everyone can just go to the library”. There are always going to be advantages and disadvantages for everyone to face; I may not have enough money to buy the parts required to build the canon version of Minion, but that’s my problem and mine alone.

@Toa_Heatwave

Additionally–and this is something I have mentioned before–I think it is vital that we consider the current crisis the world is facing. Many countries have imposed strict lockdowns that would prevent members from leaving their homes in order to seek out a 3D printer. While this obviously won’t last forever, we have no idea how long it will last at this time, and the first contest is set to begin in just over two months.

Anything could happen in those two months. I mean, literally anything. TTV could lose their entire site and the contests could be called off; it’s ridiculous to hold back because of a current event when everyone involved in the crisis now likely - note I didn’t say absolutely, only likely - has extra free time on their hands and even more incentive to enter.[quote=“Toa_Heatwave, post:163, topic:51546”]
3D parts come with an inherent divide between those who can afford to make them and those who can’t, and I’m not certain that I’m entirely comfortable with how liberally the rules allow their use…
[/quote]

These arguments are a little silly. The whole ruleset should change because some people wouldn’t be able to utilize every option, thus creating a disadvantage? We’d better not allow Dviddy or Likus or Djokson to enter, because they have had much more experience building and far greater knowledge of pieces than I would, seeing as I’ve barely improved in the last five years.

The option is available for those who want to utilize it. If the mask is ugly, if the paint job is awful, if the build is overly simplistic, it won’t stand a chance against the better entries. As you’ve clearly displayed, there’s a strong disapproval from the community regarding painted or modified parts, and much less so with custom printed masks. The people putting them in their mocs are taking the gamble that it will win over enough people with its design to win the contest, and they always run the risk of turning off too many people with modification or paint to lose the chance of victory.

@Gilahu

I honestly really don’t understand how that isn’t the core rule upon which the whole contest is built. Like, it just completely escapes me. That doesn’t add up. No offense, but I’m sitting here just trying to figure out how anyone could even consider doing it otherwise. I haven’t yet heard a good answer to that.

Here’s the bottom line in regards to that issue: Greg said he’d allow it. TTV agreed.

Why isn’t this the foundation for the whole contest? Because the man who dictated every contest prior said it’s acceptable. No, I don’t want it either, but as I said before, that’s not Greg’s problem.

[Tarkur]

You know what I totally overreacted over my stupid concern and I also apologize for being confusing in my explanation seeing as the quote from the rules in your reply quells my concerns. In the end did I make a fuss about nothing yes definately do I apologize for it yes I do. Basically all I want out of an entry for me to vote on is that it works with the designs of characters already established in G1 nothing more. Not everyone shares that opinion and that is fine. I can’t and I shouldn’t as you say force anyone to vote on anything they don’t approve on and I apologize for acting in such away and that I in my arguing came across as such.

I don’t feel I need to continue this discussion.

//Tarkur

[Gilahu]

@Ghid

Here’s the bottom line in regards to that issue: Greg said he’d allow it. TTV agreed.

With all due respect to the man and props to him for staying in contact with the community even 10 years after the end of Bionicle - I can’t shake off the feeling that he’d wave through literally anything in this regard. I believe he stated multiple times in the past that he doesn’t commonly work with visuals, doesn’t particularly care about fan creations in the sense that he looks at them in his free time and doesn’t build with Lego either. He also commonly worked off of what set creators and artists provided him with, I believe.

And for him to allow something means someone suggested it. And someone suggesting it means that this someone can change it. And if I’m not mistaken this someone is TTV. Who are representing the fans. Which… actually brings up the whole issue about votes for the rules again. Someone brought that up above already. Feels a little unfair to have this decided only by some “community heads”. I don’t even know who all of those are, why they are considered community heads and why this gives them the right to decide the contest rules vs. an open vote.

Of course such a vote might confirm the current rules or not, but at least it would have been held. Honestly, though, if people could vote - can anyone here seriously imagine a reasonable amount of people voting for “I don’t care if the MOC is recreatable” vs “I want the MOC to be recreatable”?

I’ve heard arguments in the past about how if I didn’t like the outcome I could always do my own thing with only official parts. Why can’t other people do their own thing using whatever they want off of a basis everyone can build, though?

[TichePotato]

@Gilahu

I mean, just to be clear again - I believe I said as much in the original vote topic, too: Normally people can do whatever they want with their parts and use whichever parts they like for their MOCs. It’s their creation, that’s completely fine. Maybe I don’t like it, but that doesn’t matter because I can just ignore it and people who enjoy can enjoy.

The big problem comes around when I can’t ignore it - because it is now canon. And this is the sole reason why I’m arguing about it.

That’s a very fair point. As much as headcanon is a thing, it’s much harder to ignore something canon, especially something as prominent as these contests, than it is to ignore a MOC you don’t care much for.

Because as much as these are MOCs, they will be (probably) entered into the canon. I think it comes down to the degree to which the community as a whole can reconcile that.

Personally, I think that this whole contest is a waste of time and we should be spending our resources on modifying humans to create actual, living Toa and Matoran and whatnot.