BIONICLE's frustrating state in pop culture

Actually that’s a really fair point, Comics really suffer under scrutiny - but then again, Bionicle actually did have comics and they weren’t too bad (nothing outstanding, but I mean, the Ignition trilogy of comics is a pretty solid story, especially given the “this set in this issue” limitations Greg had to face writing them).

I feel like Bionicle, if it got big enough, could maybe have a supporting show (like how The Mandalorian is a Star Wars offshoot) but to have a show tell the whole story would be pretty hard to pull off in any good quality, I think. But a show where that “episodic format” creates self-contained side stories could hypothetically be cool - in G1 terms, you could have a “Lesovikk” episode and a “Brothers in Arms” episode and a “Dweller Report” episode - basically the serials, but ideally with, like, actually satisfying endings. :stuck_out_tongue:

But as the prime means for Bionicle’s story? I can’t see a TV show ever adequately filling that role unless it were to be phenomenally well executed, to the point where you would have to ask why not just make movies instead.

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Honestly I was mostly just thinking about the comic industry in general when writing that post. The thing about Bionicle is that we inherently think of it as a multimedia project, whereas I was thinking about franchises where comics are the main media and everything else is spinoff.

I think your bringing up of the Mandalorian and current Filoni Star Wars is extremely pertinent for this, especially if we look back at the Clone Wars as a wide phenomenon within the Star Wars franchise, primairly pre-Disney.

You had the Clone Wars Multimedia Project, which saw the Dark Horse comics alongside the Tartakovsky tv series, as well as a good number of novels and video games. While this all served as a backdrop to the parent media of Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, it was made concurrently and both parent and child had effects on the other; the most easily notable example being Grevious.

However, for the most part, the multimedia project was seperate from the films in that it told the stories between the films, much like how the current Filoni Star Wars is connected to the films by taking place in the same universe.

I’m really not sure how much this could be applied to Bionicle though, as Star Wars still does have that parent media that does dictate the progress of all else.

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I feel like Greg’s “unplanned writing” is really a double-edged sword - on one hand, it’s engaging, and he is clearly very dedicated to make sure the character decisions make sense, so there are no sudden “oh I need to make John Doe do this thing he’d never do because plot” situations like the 2005 Vakama situation he got pushed into. On the other, his method doesn’t leave much room for thematic consistency or satisfying resolution.

His best work (at least for Bionicle) was when he was told where the ending was going to be and he had to get there, and his best book, in my opinion (Downfall) was written backwards. Compare, like, any of the story years to any of the serials and you’ll see what I mean. He does great small-scale work with character interaction and development, but I feel like it’s the overarching plot where he struggles.

TLR (the movie he had by far the most involvement in) has the same issue - I know people slam that movie for a lot of things that, objectively, are quite minor (like not liking Berix’s voice or complaining about the somewhat clunky dialog, which is fair but it wouldn’t really ruin the movie alone) but the story actually works right up until the conclusion. I can enjoy that movie as much as the Miramax trilogy (bar WoS, which has more crucial issues) until the Roxtus scene, but from there it just unravels so incredibly fast on a number of levels.

tl;dr: I think, for the story to work, to say that Greg couldn’t be involved is a bit harsh. But I agree that he probably couldn’t carry the story of Bionicle alone, like some people think.

Just to make it super clear - my above comment is in no way disagreeing with this sentiment. Original Bionicle had Advance, and Lego just saying “here’s our Bio team!” almost definitely won’t end with a quality saga. :stuck_out_tongue:

That said, I am always of the belief that good storytelling can’t be made by throwing money at it - I don’t think you’d need a conventional “big” studio to pull this off (and some, I’m pretty sure, would do an actively bad job).

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Never said that was necessary at all. It’s a matter of finding whoever’s best suited for the job–but a team of experienced pros is likely to give the best results. I’d start by finding people who did good work with similar-scale projects in the past.

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“Ninjago is about a group of young people learning to master innate, magical, ancient abilities in a world that is constantly moving forward into an ever changing future.” Simply, it’s about balancing the past and present.

I honestly think it would be harder to pitch Bionicle’s thematic through line in one sentence.

@fishers64, I echo your position that, as Greg has said, kids want things that are ‘aspirational’. They want to be treated like older kids, and get content at that quality level aimed at them. That’s why Bionicle has had its staying power. To an adult reading it for the first time, the story holds the same level of mystery and quality as for a child in 2001.
Also, I would argue that the closest thing to the level of mystery Bionicle had being featured in a kid’s show is gravity falls, so it is possible (though Bionicle would also have the challenge of building its setting along with the mystery, a disadvantage that Gravity Falls sidesteps by taking place in the ‘real world’).

I think that anyone interested in a potential Bionicle reboot should watch Disney’s Star Wars: High Republic very closely. It’s the first time since Bionicle that I can think of where a large company is attempting to tell an actual, overarching story in a compelling way that will attract fans new-and-old with a Bionicle-esque multimedia style approach, and without any movies attached to its launch. Honestly, Bionicle was the first thing that came to mind when watching the High Republic pitch video.

I think the best we can hope for though, is another theme that is similar to Bionicle, rather than a reboot. It would allow Lego to try a successful marketing scheme again without carrying all of Gen 1’s baggage.

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Honestly, personally, I’m really hoping for something that just takes a lot of the core aesthetical ideas of Bionicle and uses them to tell a collection of interesting stories that are made more interesting by the nature of Bionicle, but not entirely reliant upon it.

The blend of high-tech with nature in the way Bionicle did it is something I can barely think of elsewhere, and once those core world concepts are established, the scope of potential stories to be told within the setting increases exponentially. Recently I’ve been all but fixated on the vague idea of a Bionicle Detective Noir set in Metru Nui, featuring a Matoran PI trying to deal with the increasing presence of the Vahki as they solve cases. I haven’t gotten besides that vague idea and don’t really plan to, but I think Bionicle’s strongest potential is as a setting. It increases the amount of sets that can be sold, the formats and mediums it can be told in, and the potential appeal to different audiences.

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It’s clear that you all understand TV better than me. I have heard Gravity Falls and Avatar: The Last Airbender come up in reference to the Bionicle TV thing before, but still haven’t watched either of them. I just don’t like TV for some reason. facepalm

Agreed. Smaller character counts make for better books and TV episodes. The more characters you have to wrangle, the harder it is.

Ugh, Disneyonicle. :stuck_out_tongue:

Maybe it would be better if they got the Lego Movie people to do a Bionicle movie or TV show but since they botched Ninjago, I’m not 100 percent convinced that would work.

The people who worked on the Lego Movie weren’t the same ones who worked on the Ninjago movie. The Lego Movie was dirrected by Phil Lord and Chris Miller, who have since done Spiderverse, and written by the Hageman brothers (who, ironically, wrote for the Ninjago show up until March of the Oni, but had no involvement with its movie), also known for Troll Hunters. Actually, that’s another show that proves that you can have a kids’ episodic TV show with a large overarching mystery and plot (it actually follows a similar structure to a three-year Lego theme).

I do think that a Lord and Miller Bionicle movie would work, though the chances of getting one are slim to none. Also, given that we’re locked in quarantine, I recommend using the time to check out Gravity Falls and Avatar (and Troll Hunters, if you are so inclined, but watch the other two first). They will be more than worth a viewing.

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See, the issue with that is that it sounds like a great deal of other franchises out there. There’s nothing inherently engaging about it - if you’re already interested in that kind of story, sure, but otherwise there’s nothing to make you take a second glance. And it’s far from unique - you could arguably apply the same description to Chima, even (although I wouldn’t :stuck_out_tongue:) .

If I had to pitch Bionicle’s concept in a sentence, I’d say “Imagine if the entire universe was the inside of a giant robot’s body, and you realize you’re actually the white blood cells who are supposed to fight off an evil disease.”

That gets attention. And don’t just take my word for it - Faber has repeatedly stated that he only had to pitch a single image (the robot’s head under the island) to get approval for the concept. The Ninjago premise doesn’t have that same hook.

That’s not to say you need a hook that effective to be good - plenty of successful stories that I can think of (say, Star Wars) would actually struggle to get such an intriguing, condensed idea. It’s one of Bionicle’s strongest points as both a thematic factor and a narrative - and frankly, I don’t think it would be Bionicle without that notion driving it (controversial statement, perhaps, but if you disagree lets talk about it :stuck_out_tongue:)

You could argue that the sentence I gave doesn’t encompass everything that makes Bionicle, well, Bionicle, but it’s the thematic core that drives the entire story (arguably moreso in my mind than ideas even like Kanohi masks, or elemental powers) and it’s probably the single most important thing any reboot would have to consider in some way (perhaps with a radical change of some sort to avoid people predicting it? But to ditch it entirely is almost to start from scratch, which is what G2 did).

Oh, don’t worry, I don’t watch much TV either. I’ve seen enough to know that I don’t want to see much more, unless it’s really good. I, too, haven’t seen either of those shows - I’d consider TLA, because it sounds kind of cool, but Gravity Falls is kind of… nah, thanks (and unless I’m mistaken, isn’t it like a blatant comedy, to the point of almost being the TV version of Literary Nonsense [the genre]? That’s not a great comparison for Bionicle :stuck_out_tongue:) .

The Lego Movie people do parody. And they do it well. Which is why the Ninjago movie failed.

The original Lego Movie was kind of just a parody of… like, everything. There were some elements that you could almost go so far as to call satirical, even, although to define the whole movie as that would be a huge disservice as to the scope of humor they use.

And Batman worked because they were spoofing off Batman, one of the most recognized pop culture characters of the last few decades.

But Ninjago was a disaster not because they “changed” it from the show (again, “The Lego Batman Movie” was a completely original take on the character; almost a reboot, if you will. So that’s not the issue.). The Ninjago Movie struggled simply because Ninjago isn’t big enough to support a parody. That’s not to say it’s not big enough for a movie, but parody in particular demands a familiarity with the source material, which in this case is a disaster for a multitude of reasons:

  • Many people don’t know Ninjago at all
  • Many who do don’t know much beyond “it’s Ninja” - stuff like the Lloyd/Garmadon relationship and robot Zane would have just seemed arbitrary and weird to them
  • Those who are familiar with the show (and don’t get me wrong, they are just as crucial an audience, if not moreso) tend to be, like big fans of it, and so when the company that makes their favourite TV show also makes it’s breakout movie for said show a parody of that show, it makes sense that the hardcore fans cheesed because they know people won’t get the jokes, and they’re like “why couldn’t you just do the story”.

I personally found it really funny, if less so than the other movies, because I’m familiar enough with Ninjago to know the basic story beats (at least, the ones by then. I couldn’t tell you anything about the last few years) but I’m also not invested enough in it where I’m upset to see it made fun of (I make fun of it regularly, lol :stuck_out_tongue:). So stuff like the “Your element is… Green!” and “I got bit by a snake, that’s why I have four arms” had me in hysterics. But I’m in a very small minority of people who know a lot about Ninjago without actually being a fan, although as the show drags on and on I suspect that number has since increased.

For those people to do a Bionicle movie would be a similar disaster, arguably worse - because the fans are dying to see it get a proper story, and a parody (while I’d love it) is not great for a struggling franchise (or even a successful, but non-ubiquitous one like Ninjago) because while, say, with Batman, the fans know “oh, these guys are fans too and we’re laughing at the stuff only fans get” with the other two it comes across almost as a mockery of your line because the movie is no longer laughing with you, but at you, which is much much less pleasant. :stuck_out_tongue:

(And that’s why I personally enjoyed the Ninjago movie, because I often laugh at Ninjago :stuck_out_tongue:)

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As I previously mentioned, the directors of the Lego Movie, Lord and Miller, can do serious takes on characters (ala Spiderverse), so I think that they could make a great Bionicle film.

Also, while Gravity Falls is a comedy, it is by no means literary absurdity. It is very coherent and internally consistent. Honestly, I would put it in my top five shows of all time. If you have the time, it is more than worth a watch.

But, to the main point: I agree that the Mata Nui Robot twist is the main thrust of Gen I, but I have to say that, with a reboot, it would be a terrible idea to do it again. It’s a great twist, but now, everyone will see it coming. The only way you could do a reboot well would be a) creating an entirely new mystery to build the story around (and at that point, it would make more sense for it to be a new IP), or b) to lean into the robot thing all the way, letting the audience know it from the beginning, so the story can focus elsewhere.

Because of this, I think a rebooquel would be a better choice. If you set it far enough in the future on Spherus Magna, you could make the new story something entirely unique without sacrificing the Bionicle identity.

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I don’t think they would do a bad job. I’m talking about if it were done by the same “team” or something - in other words “The Lego Bionicle Movie.”

An actual Bionicle movie directed by Lord and Miller could be interesting, depending on the take they go with.

I stand corrected, sorry. :wink:

The core fans would, but as we’ve been discussing, the number of people who go “Oh, BIONICLE! I remember that” compared to the number who go “Yes, I remember the climax of the 2008 story arc” is much higher. You could argue they could look it up, but you could also argue that people who wanted to know whether Infinity War would have a happy ending or not could have read the comics it was based on. Many, many people didn’t, and the shock ending worked, even though I’ve heard of Marvel comic fans going into that cinema on the day of release still knowing generally what to expect.

I’m quite firmly convinced that G1 lore is detailed and obscure enough where, if you were to do Bionicle on a big enough scale (as in, bigger than G1, at least) the twist would not only still be fresh for a large audience, but also be impacting to the point where cutting it would be a terrible mistake.

(That said, your idea about letting the audience in on it from day 1 has potential merit, but it would change how you tell the story considerably)

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The key difference is that with Bionicle, as soon as someone Googles Mata Nui, (assuming they keep that name for G3), they’ll find the GSR as the second image. With Infinity War, there’s slightly more effort needed to find out the ending. Sure, you needn’t read the books, but you do generally have to search for the ending specifically.

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Speaking of the LEGO Movies, LEGO has recently signed a 5-year contract with Universal and they will be making future LEGO Movies together, after the contract they had with Warner Brothers had ended. And since Warner Brothers still holds the rights to the LEGO Movie characters, that means the Universal LEGO Movies would be a complete reboot of the LEGO Cinematic Universe, with new characters and (most likely) a new format.

While this seems very unlikely, could Bionicle be considered as a potential candidate for the rebooted LEGO Cinematic Universe?

…who said he has to be called Mata-Nui?
tbh, I’d be really cheesed if he wasn’t, but if the GSR was called, say… Ekimu (:stuck_out_tongue:) you wouldn’t have this issue.

That’s not to say that I think the name Mata-Nui is off grounds, either - in a sufficiently large and popular reboot your new images will make it to the top fast, and just seeing the GSR in a google search isn’t really enough to hammer home the significance of the robot, either - you have to actually understand that he is the universe. Watching something like “The Rising” animation would be more of a clincher, but a picture of just “a big robot” doesn’t quite hit it. Consider also how much of the wider movie going audience actually does research on the franchises their watching - not as many as you might think.

So there’s a few avenues you could take - the easy way out is just to change the name though.

This actually happened? ew. I don’t think I like that. Universal isn’t making much quality content, lately… and even if they were, rebooting something this fresh (when the old movies were clearly working at least somewhat well) is not at all an appealing idea.

Is this a word now? I don’t know if I should be happy I can now describe it, sad it’s become so common that it’s got a name, or laughing because of how goofy it looks. :stuck_out_tongue:
(Of course, there’s the possibility you just coined it yourself, in which case we need to start campaigning for people to adopt this term. :stuck_out_tongue:)

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No, it’s a thing. The first example that comes to mind of one would be Cobra Kai.

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I think the best translation of this will be “all of the old fans will see it coming, and that would still be bad.” Unless the old fans are actually making the new Bionicle, we’re still part of the target audience for the show, and if the old fans are unhappy, them making a stink could ruin everything.

If they do the giant robot again, all of the old fans will deride the new Bionicle as predictable and rightfully so. When G2 first came out, everyone was like “no more giant robots, please” - I remember that. Surely they can come up with another mystery - I mean, they did for G2, just never solved it.

G2, with the elemental planets, reminded me of the BZP Expanded Multiverse (which also never got solved, either). The mystery had to do with what the planets were and how they were aligned in the BZP version, and the G2 version had them respond to a temple on Okoto - I mean, we are talking about 6 whole planets here that do that. Whatever Okoto was supposed to be, pretty significant to need the resources of 6 planets. We just never found out what it was.

There’s a bunch of extant G1 mystery material that could be explored, starting with “Who are the Great Beings?” and going into the people Mata Nui was supposed to research. The biggest question is probably “how did Mata Nui fix the core of Spherus Magna so it didn’t use energized protodermis?”. Then there’s Bota Magna, and the psychological adjustment of all of the Toa and Matoran to SM which could make for a lot of good character development. This could even come into play with a 100-year or 1000-year G1 continuation. In comparison to Kek’s idea, this one is comparably very easy to write - I have even wrote a large amount of fanfiction exploring this space.

Whether you can get mass-market penetration with that is another argument entirely. Which puts us back into the same debate we had on G2’s eve…

How would you like Bionicle to come back?

  • Direct G1 continuation that begins right after G1 ended (with new fan entry point)
  • G1 continuation that takes place 100, 1000 years in the future (time-lapse) continuation
  • Direct G2 continuation
  • G2 time-lapse continuation
  • Full reboot
  • Other
0 voters

…only we have more options this time.

What might work is giving new fans a different entry point into this time-open G1 continuation space and onboarding them that way.

Let’s not forget that G1 pulled (literally) the giant robot trick twice - first the 8 year mystery exploration/reveal, then the reveal at the end of 2009 when the prototype robot was buried in the sand.

The obscure lore, however, has been a turn-off to new fans. That’s the big obstacle to a G1 continuation, time lapse or no - new fans will have to learn the species terminology like Matoran, Agori, Glatorian, etc.

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The GSR mystery feels, to me, like a Journey to the Center of the Earth kind of deal. So G3 would need a similar world-centric mystery that also reveals something about biology and the origin of life on the surface. Another example is the planet in the Discworld novels being a flat disc balanced on elephants atop the back of a giant turtle- which isn’t a mystery, rather, it’s a world origin- but it has a similar feel.

For any Bionicle revival to have a mystery equivalent in grandeur and thematic relevance to the GSR reveal, Faber probably needs to be involved since the GSR mystery was his idea inspired by his own life. His art for both 14B2020 / “Biovival” and Waveborn have already developed intriguing mysteries such as “What is hidden in the ice beneath the surface of Antarctica?” and “What is found at the bottom of the ocean?”

G1 was about a man composed of machines taking medicine to save his internal ecosystem from a cancer. Faber’s new project or any hypothetical G3 could have a similarly concise thematic pitch; Men composed of machines planting seeds and exploring depths to survive in a world that has already died. maybe we aren’'t told that the world is already dead, and that’s the big mystery. On the other hand, it’s a very pessimistic mystery. Maybe a better one is there is another world on the other side of the one the characters know, and they just have to dig through the Ocean floor or travel over the edge of the flat Earth to reach it.

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This might fit better in the actual Faber topic, but I want to say that this sort of thing in particular is something I’d really love to see in 14b2020.

Not to mention that it fits thematically with the reveal of Metru-Nui, except in the inverse. In many ways too it’s like Vakama’s realization that they need to travel beyond the Great Barrier. This concept that there are other, grander worlds lying just beneath the surface isn’t a new theme for Bionicle, and making it the central focus in a post-GSR reveal environment is a really good idea.

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If a bionicle open world game winds up existing, I really hope I’d get the option to make my own custom characters similar to how lego racing let players build their own cars.

Also- Never let the flame die. I hope my children one day will build mocs that rival mine, and so forth. Whether bionicle parts become obsolete and we make our builds of CCBS and lego parts, the flame will never die out. The flame is alive in more people than it may seem- only recently have I gotten back in to mocmaking after giving all my toys away when I was approaching my teen years.

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I think part of the problem is that Lego isn’t really the type of company that can support such a franchise. As a toy company, their first priority is selling sets.

The story has to revolve around the gimmicks in the sets, and if the sets don’t sell well, the story’s gone.

For Bionicle to reach its full potential, it has to be under the guidance of someone who is passionate about the story and the characters.

For example, look at the serials that Greg started writing outside of his contract. This might just be me, but those serials are some of the best parts of the story, and they’re what really got me hooked on the franchise.

The reason they were so good was because Greg didn’t have to worry about forcing a ‘6 Toa vs. 6 bad guys’ plot, and could instead play with pre-established characters and ideas.

So if Bionicle is ever going to become a mainstay in pop culture, it has to be under the creative control of someone who prioritizes story over action figures.

(Fingers crossed for #biovival being a G1 continuation)

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