POLL: BIONICLE G1 Canonization Contests?

Hm, I have to say, I disagree with all three of these points.

No one would be forcing them to open-source their designs. It is up to them to decide if they think it is worthwhile to submit their private design for a canonization contest and open-source it. And I think the consensus is that contestants would not be allowed to use custom parts that they did not themselves own the rights to, or which were not already open-source.

But most of the important visual details about the Toa Hagah and Barraki are unknown, so I think a lot of people would be interested in contests for them. Making this distinction seems arbitrary to me.

I think the contest should prioritize quality of the finished result over the manner in which the competition is carried out, or holding a competition for the sake of competition. I really liked the way Gonel argued in favor of allowing previous submissions:

Plus, for the reasons Gonel gave, I fail to see how submitting a previous design that someone worked on out of passion flies in the face of creativity.

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Exactly right; LEGO could, in fact, send C&D’s to those people, but similar to how they let communities operate and use their trademarks and assets (and not everything, they certainly draw their own lines, especially when it comes to the minifigure), they allow 3D modelers to do their thing. Which is great! It’s a healthy relationship. But there’s a distinction between allowing something to exist or happen and actively encouraging it, and it’s too close to poking the bear for me, and for the community I’m representing.

If this is somehow a bridge too far, I have to ask: why? What makes non-LEGO so intrinsically important to a (theoretical) competition about LEGO? There’s this inherent contradiction that I don’t think people are acknowledging (again, entirely personal note). I’ll note that nothing I’ve said really applies to art contests; while those aren’t my favorite, it’s a different conversation to be had at another time.

[quote=“Planetperson, post:192, topic:51213”]
But most of the important visual details about the Toa Hagah and Barraki are unknown, so I think a lot of people would be interested in contests for them. Making this distinction seems arbitrary to me.[/quote]
I’m not inherently poo-pooing the idea of, say, an art contest to decide whatever a Hagah mask would look like (I don’t like it, but I don’t have an objection to it). It ties in with the 3D printed parts; those are, as I’ve said, a non-starter. There’s also the last point, which might have actually been the most salient; if the entire purpose of a Hagah contest is really just to get a particular mask design canonized, then do a contest for that. Backdooring things entirely defeats the purpose of what a contest would be trying to achieve.

I’ll preface by saying none of this is a knock on the passion or creativity of the things people have made so far. I’ve loved seeing Hagah designs with new masks shiny armor and all the crazy cool stuff people have come up with. A lot of this has to do with the offshooting of “no 3D parts” rule. But admittedly it would have been more of a “contest specific” rule than the way I presented it. I want an even space for everybody to play and compete, and that means starting from scratch.

I’ll use the Melding Teridax as an example (fully aware I hosted this!). When that first started, the rule of no previous models was in place. People rioted, for the reason that they wanted Tiome’s MoC to be entered (the conspiracy theorist in me says this is the reason people voted for it to be our then-next contest at all, but I digress), and the rule was changed. Naturally, end of the day, that MoC wins because it was already widely interpreted as the be-all end-all representation of the character. I’m not saying that would happen now, but I like to think it dovetails with some of the points you’ve been making; if the idea is to have a single representation that sits above all others, what purpose does it serve if people ALREADY have that notion in place? Fanon and canon become indistinguishable, and this LEGO seal of approval doesn’t mean anything.

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Because you clearly don’t get what I’m saying. I can tell because you ask this:

You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m saying that, canon or fanon, it’s official either way. It will count either way. The practical difference for the community between one and the other is nonexistent.

Because it’s pointless to do so. It’s useless to distinguish between fanon and canon when it becomes the official design; at which point, there’s no real difference between the two and it becomes, as I’ve said, just semantics.

And my entire point is that it doesn’t. I don’t believe you’ve explained what exactly canonizing new designs stops anyone from doing.

Not everyone can. Not all of us are good MOCers or artists, and not all of us are imaginative enough to get a good image in our heads. Some of us get excited over stuff like this, which is obvious from the poll. Some of us like Bionicle continuing to get attention. Some of us just want to verify that Greg’s still alive and not a shambling corpse possessed by the ghost of some Albanian fisherman who cursed him as he died for whatever reason. Again, not everyone is like you and sees the same thing in this phenomenon. I could live without these contests, but I’d like to know what Artakha looks like, and it’d bring me back to the days when I was a little kid seeing new characters for the first time. This is an active event I can participate in, and I’ll take that if I can get it.

And MOCs can’t? Brotha, the best MOCs people make these days are as good or better than any MOCs that have come before. Imagine the Miserix contest being held today–you’d get something a hundred times as sick as what we got then. It seems like you’re assuming you won’t like whatever wins without going into this with an open mind. I don’t think that’s a healthy attitude for life in general.

For narrative, sure, but think of every novel without a visual adaptation of some kind. Do we really need to know what any character in those pages looks like? Not necessarily; but with Bionicle being a franchise built upon toys, it seems perverse to have so many characters with no representation as toys. There could be a Bionicle without any visual depictions of the characters–it just couldn’t be the kind of franchise it is today. And if most of the characters have to have a visual depiction, then all of them should.

How, though? Lego or a representative (Greg) has to sign off either way. Either someone within Lego makes the design, or a talented fan does. The end result is the same: a design is finalized and made canon, some people are happy with the product, others aren’t, and a bunch of revamps get made.

The way the set is put together doesn’t have the least bit of importance for lore. Like I said, Bulk’s mask would work because it could conceivably be a kanohi based on its shape. The point of connection is an arbitrary detail.

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Especially considering the mask of life from the Mata Nui canister set attached on top.

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All of this just begs the question of why it is necessary to decree the contest winner “canon” in the first place, and why “fanon” is not good enough.

How do you define “fanon,” “canon,” and “official”? You introduced a third category without explaining what it meant. If “official” is not the same thing as “canon,” why can’t we declare the winner “official” but not “canon”?

I think that this is an excellent example of something that could work case-by-case. Some contests for prior designs, other contests for new innovation sorta thing? I am strongly against anything that would require new MOCs to have to contend with old work in every case, and I’m also somewhat against a resolution that would absolutely exclude older work, so a some-for-A, some-for-B answer resonates with me. Rebuilt old stuff would be a grey area, but I’d say it’d fall into “new stuff” for the purposes of these categories if the rebuild is… uh… “significant”. The arbitrary nature of that can be narrowed down if any of this pans out I guess?

Billy (EDIT: I mean the contest-winner, d’oh) gets validation from Bionicle canon which is super cool and gets loads of people to try it out, rather than it being just another fanon project. There’s no tangible difference because canon is one of those silly human things, but there’s a people difference. People who don’t like the new thing don’t need to care because it’s a fully intangible, ultimately meaningless concept, but it is a meaningful concept to those that want it to be. It can be both meaningful and meaningless because there are many people here.

The upside exists so long as people care about this franchise and about having a Real Canon Thing they can look up and see on a wiki… but the downside doesn’t exist unless people are masochists about fandom. I mean. People can be.* But that’s their issue.

*Citation: fanfiction.net, tumblr.com, tvtropes.org et al

Eberron and Bionicle are the only two I can think of, though the fandoms handle this sort of thing very differently. Hopefully we’ll get a Bionicle supplement for 5e, I guess? I’d love some Eberron sets too.

…I don’t have the energy for more backreading and my scroll bar keeps getting smaller every time I look at it so I’ll just scan from here on out.

Okay, @Dorek is the exception here (sorry Dorek but you said I could) because, okay, so, I understand the Lego Ambassador issue and agree that you’d be playing with fire to show those custom parts in a set (as opposed to art of their own) on an officialish Lego encyclopedia… However, it would be pretty rich if Biosector01 started becoming less of an accurate representation of canon because there was already some depiction, or the contest made an older creation canon. Again, I’m pretty against the idea of pitting new creations against older ones by necessity but, if that were to be the way by community (and Greg Farshtey) mandate, I’d expect the readily-accessible chronicles to go along too.

Biosector01 didn’t stop depicting canon for personal reasons before (I hope), and I think that it comes across really irresponsible to draw “lines in the sand” based on your personal issue with Word of Greg when that was good enough before (see: many, many of BS01’s citations). People, as far as I can tell, seek out biosector01 because it’s slightly more canon-accurate than the alternative; if it ceases to be so, I’d imagine that folks will click on the top result like google wants us to.

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Okay, I see your point (I think you meant that the contest winner gets validation, not Billy). It’s a valid argument. I guess my concern is that in scenario (A), Billy would get less validation, whereas in (B), the situation is more equitable. I like (B) much better because the level of validation depends solely on the quality of the work, and not a subjective notion of what is canon and what is not. I hope that clarifies my stance a bit more.

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I did mean that, yeah, oops.

I can see your point too, I think. However, I feel that the idea of Billy’s own work receiving less validation in scenario (A) relies on this community being much less lovely than I think it is. I hope we don’t listen to kolhii-heads who decry slightly-more-fanon-in-their-fanon as impure, or at least that we don’t let them sour the genuine opportunities. Billy is, either way, creating something beautiful and new, just as he would be if he were building his own idea of how Tahu Mata should have looked. That’s the canonest canon we have, but people still craft their own versions that I dare say are better than the original, and that’s not an insult against the original designers who were far more limited in scope than we are today.

Thus, I feel like (A) would still have Billy be judged solely on the quality of his work, unless his work is being judged by kolhii-heads. People are clever enough to realise that this is a different interpretation to the canon model, I’d hope, just as they’d accept the same for an axe-wielding Mata-Green Lewa Phantoka. That is, unless Billy is specifically trying to adapt a new version of the canon model, which I admit could get fuzzy if Billy doesn’t feel the need to be clear either way, but not fuzzy enough to counter the positives, in my opinion.

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I hope this is true too.

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I do want it said specifically, that Dorek’s opinions are not necessarily BS01’s opinions directly, however they do somewhat share my own (though I still maintain I want to keep an open mind to all of this.)

Put plainly, if the community decides it wants a 3D printed mask open season for submissions, how can BS01 even begin to say no?

However, I have been talking about it with Dorek, Meso, and Eljay for a bit today. I think we’re pretty close to a compromise that benefits everybody, not just one side or the other. It’s still up to the community of course, but I think we can work out something together.

Anyway, final standpoint is BS01 would like nothing more than to be involved, but it does have concerns about how it’s done.

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Since it was your idea, you need to explain why “fanon” is different. I went into this thinking it was just a matter of headcanon, but when it’s the official result of a contest that chooses a design sanctioned by Lego to represent a given character, then it can’t just be headcanons because then that’s how Lego would represent that character in any and all media, it’s the image posted on BS01, and it’s what people will then point to when someone asks “What does this guy look like?” Just holding a contest and saying “here’s your headcanon, but this has no bearing on anything from Lego itself” is useless and ineffectual.

Official, as in sanctioned by the distributor/writer of Bionicle itself, Lego/Greg. If it’s official, it must be canon or there’s no point to making it official. If the contest doesn’t declare anything canon, doesn’t make anything official, then it has served no purpose outside of just being a contest.

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@Planetperson
On the one hand, yes CCBS is not preset in anything currently in the Gen 1 canon, but on the other hand, neither were Throwbot & Roborider parts until the rahi and Dark Hunter contests happened. Eliminator features four Throwbot arms, which up until then were no more official than CCBS pats are now. Also, I feel size should be a non-issue, since scale s so inconstant throughout the line anyway, along with things like fingers (some toa and matoran have them, others don’t). I feel that it should be based on what looks best, rather than what’s consistent.

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The ‘No’ option in the poll is an option in the poll. So is the reply button.

More specifically, Greg wanted the community’s opinion, not the community’s consensus. The Whys and Hows matter, especially when most of the people here haven’t been paying attention up until the link got shared on social media, when Swert and Eljay and other big names had already voiced their opinions and you’d definitely want to see those first before you vote.

But, people reviving their dead accounts just to say no and cite how they don’t care about Bionicle anymore as their reasoning is… Interesting discussion.[quote=“Kini_Hawkeye, post:189, topic:51213”]
People drawing the line is one thing, but people drawing lines when we don’t even know what beach we’re on is a problem.
[/quote]

Well that’s why they voted no - the chance that the beach could be very uncomfortable to walk on is incredibly deterring, so let’s boycott all beaches.

Wait, didn’t Bionicle end on the beach?

And in that case, why the heck is Greg involved to any degree?[quote=“SirKeksalot, post:203, topic:51213”]
Just holding a contest and saying “here’s your headcanon, but this has no bearing on anything from Lego itself” is useless and ineffectual.
[/quote]

I really have to agree with keksalot; this doesn’t make any sense. On the one hand, you appear to be arguing against the canonization of official entries, which in turn would argue against Greg being present… But at the same time, you’re also making it sound like Greg has to determine what people’s headcanons are? Maybe I’m just misinterpreting it, but…[quote=“Planetperson, post:147, topic:51213”]
Couldn’t you accomplish the same thing with strictly “fanon” contests that do not risk stepping on anyone’s headcanon?
[/quote]

I’m also interested in what ‘fanon’ means.

To explain kek’s point (not just for your sake, it took me a good while to fully comprehend it and I want to make sure everyone is clear - or if I’m dead wrong he can correct me) whether or not Greg determines the outcome of this contest to be canon or ‘fanon’, the effect will generally be considered the same. People will still hold the end result in a place of high esteem and use it as reference constantly because it has been blessed by the almighty Greg unless he gives it a very hard no.

Official simply means that Greg legitimized the end result by giving it a verdict, ergo, it has become ‘canon’ even if the definition is grey.

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By fanon I mean that the contest produces a winner, and the winning entry receives accolades and exposure for being the best of the submissions, but it is not ordained as canon by Greg or Lego.

Okay, so we can agree that according to your definition, “official” logically implies “canon.” But earlier you said,

But this would imply that canon and fanon are the same thing. So I truly don’t know how to interpret your argument in a way that is logically consistent. You seem to be saying one thing and then revising it to mean something else after I point out that it has a logical flaw, rather than offering a new argument to point out things that I failed to consider, which is why our conversation has not been productive.

I am completely okay and at peace with your having the opposite opinion from mine, and I respect that. I, in return, would appreciate it if it you limited your critiques to my arguments, and refrained from saying that I am not going into this with an open mind, or do not have a healthy attitude for life in general. I have been very receptive to opposing opinions, but you need to make your case coherently if you are going to change my mind.

@Ghid To clarify, a fanon contest (according to my definition) would not require Greg’s involvement, since it would not be official. It would be just like any other MOC contest, except maybe a bit more high profile.

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Then that defeats the entire point of these contests, which is to canonize things. That’s the sole reason we’re roping Greg into this.

It would in the context of these contests only, as they are official contests. Again, I’m working with the assumption that the contest must accomplish the goal we’re voting over seeking out; in which case, fanon can’t be what you describe it as in this post.

And I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t assume I’m attacking you. If you’re opposing these contests because you’re afraid that you, in particular, might not like the outcome, and you’re not even entertaining the notion that maybe the winner will be absolutely baller–which, far as I can tell, you haven’t done–then that is closed-minded. That’s not healthy. I say this not to attack your position but to point out the folly in your attitude, which is defined by assuming the worst without due cause.

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I feel like the fact that he’s still participating in this discussion and trying to understand your position it’s evidence that he is approaching this with an open mindset. [quote=“SirKeksalot, post:207, topic:51213”]
Then that defeats the entire point of these contests, which is to canonize things. That’s the sole reason we’re roping Greg into this.

Planetperson:
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^ That is the crux of the argument for me, on one hand this is the real reason why the contest would be helpful for the community and why people would rally behind it, on the other it really can’t be considered canon (in my opinion) just because Greg has accepted to be the judge of a contest born from and organized by the fandom. I (like @Planetperson, I think) understand what you mean with [quote=“SirKeksalot, post:207, topic:51213”]
It would in the context of these contests only, as they are official contests. Again, I’m working with the assumption that the contest must accomplish the goal we’re voting over seeking out; in which case, fanon can’t be what you describe it as in this post.
[/quote]

But I do not agree that it would be the same as one of the contests made by Lego that officialized the winner’s design. There’s also the discussion about custom/3D pieces, the use of CCBS and other arguments like[quote=“Dorek, post:145, topic:51213”]
The entire brilliance of BIONICLE was its intense union between the stories and the sets, and while I know there have been plenty of characters only depicted in art, it’s unfathomable to me that we would have a LEGO-sanctioned contest (this particular stamp of approval apparently being necessary for the fragile equilibrium) and just throw out the entire idea of using LEGO at all by allowing what amounts to fake parts.
[/quote]
And

Or

Just to quote a few…
I mean, there are so many things to be discussed here, I don’t see any “folly” in his attitude and eagerness to engage in discussion, many of the points he makes are still perfectly valid for me.
On another note, we really should try to spread awareness about this poll, Greg accepted to participate if the community wanted the contest but how can something be declared “official canon” if only around 600 people (it’s an example) voted?
I’ll probably gain the antipathy of many people by saying this, but shouldn’t we have a ‘minimum threshold’ type of thing for something that would implement official canon depictions?

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I did say you could @ me and you always can, promise :slight_smile:

I’ll say that the reasons I have drawn these lines aren’t personal (and I really hope I’ve been able to make the distinction between my own personal feelings, which admittedly tend to be more on the negative side, and the more officious reasons why I/we don’t think it’s a good idea for the community after all.

We do consider Greg’s word as final… except in cases when he is wrong, which not only is just good on principle (I’ve always said that to treat Greg as completely infallible does a disservice not only to him as a source, but to our readers as well) but is something he himself has acknowledged and agreed with. In this case, I’m really trying hard to balance responsibilities both to LEGO, as a registered community, and to our readers and the broader community as a whole. These aren’t decisions and statements that come easily or lightly, and again, I’m doing my best to try and separate or at least make clear what are my own personal opinions and the unbiased stances I feel we have to take.

It might come across as slightly arrogant, but I’ll say that I’m not super concerned with the data and viewership. Wikia will always be able to one-up us on SEO, but there’s a reason they aren’t a real community and we’ve remained a cohesive unit that LEGO saw fit to recognize. But, of course, I understand that reputation also bares its share of scrutiny; this is a new situation for all of us, and we’re trying to navigate it as best we can according to our guiding principles. I don’t see anything I’ve said as being contradictory to the intense skepticism we put on many things, a skepticism that has saved our bacon more often than not, but likewise, we’re not infallible and need to be able to adapt. I promise promise promise I’m not being a meanie-pants for no reason.

Apropros of absolutely nothing, I like this take on why CCBS should be allowed. I was having a hard time phrasing why I thought it was okay, but this is close to what I was envisioning. LEGO is LEGO, and even if CCBS seems weird retroactively, the principles behind using parts and pieces remains the same.

Just speaking personally, it bothers me a bit that this is the attitude, and why the quasi-official stamp of approval matters so much. More than anything I’ve said, I feel like reducing things to “just a contest” is a knock against all the hard work somebody might put in for the sake of creativity itself rather than scoring some internet points. It’s one reason in general why I’ve disliked a number of official contests that have been done, and especially ones with only one winner; it feels much less communal and more every man for himself.

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Regarding the Toa Hagah specifically as they’ve now frequently appeared in discussion:

Given that pretty much everyone seems to agree that them being Metru builds would be “correct”, I would like to point out that this would basically result in a pure 3D modeling contest if it were held as a MOCing contest. There’s as good as no way to mess up a Metru build enough to be objectively worse than another one.
Hence in those regards an art contest would be the only thing viable at all in my eyes. And that would probably extent to most Toa. Can’t have Varian not look like Norik, right? All Toa Mangai need to look like Lhikan, correct? And at that point it basically would just become slapping different masks/tools on Metru builds.

So yeah, that probably removes at least about half of the viable characters from serious MOCing competitions.


And I’ve also be mulling over the other potential candidates for canon depiction:

First group are the shapeshifting characters - for example Triglax, Kojol, the unmutated Mistika Makuta, the Makuta of Stelt or humanoid Miserix.

I mean, I admit, I’d probably be able to live with pretty much every depiction of them, but they’re shapeshifters, so defining any random canon appearance just because we can is kinda pointless. They can look however someone wants, so why go to all that trouble of defining a specific form of them that was never described in canon?

What could work, however, would be MOCing canon forms these characters took in the lore, so for example Triglax in his De-Toa form or Gorast in her “Blue Titan” form.


So after covering that, what noteable enough characters are even left? Helryx, Winged female Order of Mata Nui member, Lariska, I think potentially one or two Dark Hunters (?), Marendar, Orde, Zaria, Chiara. Those are all I can think of off the top of my head.

Any Toa would be defined a lot by the masks they wear, which I feel would give good 3D modelers an unfair advantage which again means that MOCing contests for them are pointless. The Dark Hunters (except Lariska) I can see happenening. Marendar I can also see happening, but then I’m kinda indifferent to Bara/Spherus Magna lore, so it’s possible others might see that differently. The Winged female Order of Mata Nui member is fair game, I’d say. And Lariska and Artakha are likely a problem, because no matter what happens, there will probably be at least as many people dissatisfied with any depicton of them as people which like it.

So that’s my personal stance in those regards.

Why I still keep voting no, however, is the allowance of 3D modelled parts, inclusion of CCBS and, after it has been brought to my attention, this:

Just like with CCBS this is a case where there is neither right nor wrong. It is unfair to especially younger people to ban CCBS, yet personally I’m just unable to see CCBS in a G1 character build and say “yeah that’d be fine for canon”. Similarly I can see it being unfair to enter an older MOC a lot of people have been refering to as their favorite version of a character for some time already versus a new MOC nobody has seen before. This would make it really hard for newer entries to win, yet if the older MOC wouldn’t be allowed to be entered this would also make a lot of people disappointed and angry. Not to mention the whole dilemma with people who have already put time and effort into something they care about which might now not be allowed to be entered. So there’s really no right choice here.

And if there is no right choice, and there is no need to make a choice, then isn’t the right choice to be against making a choice?

I must disagree. The general consensus within this community seems to be that a hypothetical Artakha set would wear Ekimu’s mask.

If you were to search for “Artakha MOC" on google right now, this is what you will find:


Also, what would you all think of custom parts from constraction bootlegs being used in depiction MOCs? I’m aware that MOCists like @BlackboltJohnson have used Bootleg parts in their MOCs, and probably might do so again in this potential contest if they were given the opportunity to do so.

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Eh… I’m not sure.

I’m one of those that don’t mind 3d printed parts for certain instances, (mostly known masks with no existing images), but I’m not sure I want knock-off parts involved. Unfortunately, that seems kinda hypocritical. Because technically, all 3d printed parts are bootlegs. Know the line is kinda fuzzy. So, in my opinion, it should be restricted the same way as the above, to known masks with no canon appearances.

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