POLL: BIONICLE G1 Canonization Contests?

I am not ignoring your position, I am describing it. You’ve chosen to read it as an attempt to insult you when there’s simply no other way for me to put it. If you’re only thinking about yourself when making your vote, then that is self-centered. There’s no way to describe it without using this terminology.

So, yeah, you’re assuming.

Then why act as if you’re so certain the winner will disappoint you? All I’ve seen you say on this is that you MIGHT not like the winners.

They wouldn’t, but it would be baller to have a baller design become canon for a character we have no representations of, even after over a decade; soon to be 20 years, in fact.

But you’re ignoring any benefits canonization holds, which a few different posters have explained at different points in the thread, and the added weight that comes with it. So many people want this, which means this is gonna fire up the community and get it more active than a regular contest would.

But before, you said this:

You said you voted “no” because YOU are afraid that YOU will not be satisfied with the winner and YOU are content with fanon. You go on to say that you don’t think there’s a need to impose one design upon the community, but you don’t say that like it’s the reason you voted “no.” Now you’ve shifted the goalpost and you’re saying you cast your vote with respect to the effect on the community.

But it doesn’t fill the gap because it’s not canon. There is nothing to point to when trying to describe a given character without a canon design.

I’ve done nothing but engage with it.

You’re voting out of fear that you won’t like the winners and to avoid upsetting people who’ll probably be upset no matter what without considering the many people who’ll be upset if there is no contest. I’m voting because this keeps the community active and gets people excited, as well as adds to G1 in a way that makes sense and has an actual purpose. There, I proved it. Gimme $20 and a diet soda.

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I didn’t consider that these two posts would be helpful in addressing each other before I started typing, but I realized that both @Dorek’s and @Mctoran’s responses to me help me address the other.

Apologies in advance for the wall of text…

I strongly disagree, and I think that the fact that it’s been ten years and that the community is so spread out these days will have the effect the opposite scenario as present here.

I wasn’t particularly active in the online community when the Melding Teridax competition took place, nor can I find the specific year it happened, but at the most, it took place within a few years of the Makuta’s Brothers in Arms serial debut. By that point so soon after his debut, very few people would have bothered building a moc of that Makuta iteration (relatively–and again, though I wasn’t there, this is speculation based on the interest I imagine people would have in a character they’d otherwise assume to be a white version of the 2003 iteration, as well as knowing the short amount of time they would have had to think of it and execute it). That coupled with a pretty centralized community oriented around a handful of primary communities would have meant that when someone actually did build such a distinctive moc, just about everyone would have known of it right away and adapted it as their headcanon.

But with the community as decentralized, and with so many talented moccists who have each done their own spin on the iconic (named) characters, in most scenarios, it’s almost impossible for such a clear consensus ever happening today, with named characters or with those various moccists have taken stabs at. Very rarely anymore does one particular model supersede the rest anymore, and so there is no fanon that supercedes the rest. The distinction between fanon and canon is quite distinctive today, and the distinction only grows with the time people can spend building their own versions, and the space between people who don’t see those versions and automatically adopt them.

Not to mention, there are several examples of contests that did take place where the same single model did not handily secure the victory, even in those days, whether art or moc contests.

Before I continue, I’ll grant that scenario is not altogether impossible today. For example, for those who don’t know, much of the push centered around having a contest for the “Winged Female Member” of the Order of Mata Nui has been done due to the sheer amount of buzz the character got when BionicleChicken debuted his version in his comic Date Night (coupled with the the moc another Custom Bionicle Wiki user made based off of his depiction). As such, a lot of the reason people even think of her when people think of characters that could use a competition is due to his version, and the desire to get that delightful version canonized.

Before that, “Winged Female Member” had no more recognition than “Winged Male Member Who Gave Away The Location Of The Makoki Stone To Hakann” (who also enjoyed a brief stint in BC’s limelight, who was considered as another being of the same species) or even that four-armed male horned giant who canonically appeared twice as many times as the WFM. So yeah, in that scenario, I could certainly see another Melding Teridax situation.

(But with so little focus on those characters anyway, and since few others make use of such characters, while the contest certainly wouldn’t favor the other contestants, I don’t think canonizing his version would necessarily be an altogether bad thing–and it seems, however much of an uphill battle the other contestants faced, the community nevertheless got what they wanted. Likewise, any contest revolving around WFM, the other two given examples, or other such characters would only have to be done taking that into account. Perhaps in those cases we could forego the competition and just vote if a distinctive version can be the canon version, or if instead a competition would be preferred.)

However, very rarely does one iteration of a character get an entire comic (much less a popular, thoroughly well-written one) dedicated to showcasing it. With regards to most characters–probably all of the named characters, and a fair amount of unnamed ones–I don’t know of any consensus as far as representation, and with the community as far-flung and decentralized, just about every big moccist has done his/her take on, say the Toa Hagah. I’ve seen probably well over a dozen distinctive (and good) representations of the characters, and years ago, I found drawings and maskless models of the four, the sources of which I’ve never since been able to find (and when I present the pictures to others, they’re at a loss as well–my quest continues).

What I’m getting at is that with so many options out there, the go-tos are never so clear-cut after ten years of everybody wanting to build their own versions of these recognizable (named) characters.

Or take Artakha, in the below screencap, which Mctoran has so graciously retrieved. Nowhere in there (or the rest of the google images page) is there a single Artakha moc that clearly stands out, or would claim decisive victory among the rest. Nearly everyone has their own take on the character, and since the community is so far spread, we’ve probably each seen only a small selection of takes on the character that others have never seen. Certainly, I’ve never before seen most of the below iterations.

To your point, now, I beg to differ. I think the only reason that’s the case is because, in lieu of any other form of the mask that has been canonized, moccists know that that shape is recognizable as a Mask of Creation. Details on Artakha’s true form are scarce (again, due to the absence of canonical depiction) so they realize that somewhere in their moc, they’ll have to rely on some feature that everyone can identify. Since everyone, when they see that mask, at once recognizes it as being the Mask of Creation, the builders can fall back on that as the defining feature. That doesn’t intrinsically mean that that’s the preferred version, however, or that there is not a better option that could be found, say, by a competition.

(Also, I’ll point out that once one cuts out the non-Artakha photos in that picture, as well as those that are different pictures of the same moc, that number is significantly reduced. Further, I don’t think a single artistic rendering I’ve seen on previous google image searches used the 2015 MoC. The use of that mask is often out of simple necessity or the absence of physical alternatives.)

Even that aside, that means the field is open for an artistic competition for the Mask of Creation. Again, Dorek’s very concerns from the above quote are evidently negated here. Without a clear, definitive form for Artakha, and with Ekimu’s Mask of Creation used frequently as a placeholder for Artakha’s version, the field of battle is remarkably open. I think not only would there be a fair fight among new representations of the Mask of Creation, but even the older representations are not so recognizable that they would automatically claim victory.

One more question I have for the No Old Moc-ers before I move on (as much as I like to think I’ve presented a compelling argument, I’m sure there are still some out there :smile:) is this: Would the argument for “no old mocs” extend to include even mocs that were freshly revamped for the sake of the contest? Even ones that were completely built from scratch but were based on a prior iteration? Because I’m just not sure what that would look like practically speaking.


I know this wasn’t specifically directed at me, but I actually think this is a very fascinating point. I know one or two prominent moccists who frequently order bootleg sets for their pieces.

To reiterate my stance, since I my extended post has gotten buried, I’m inclined against mocs using a majority CCBS, as well as the usage of specific parts (namely distinctive parts, such as the Mask of Creation which Mctoran was referring to). I also really want the inclusion of 3d printed masks, weapons, and pieces that are altogether necessary for a character, such as a Rahkshi spine, were that sort of contest to hypothetically take place (even though it likely wouldn’t.) I will say, though, the Eliminator point above is an astute one. Edit: Changing my stance to masks-only unless there were some hypothetical (though unlikely) Rahkshi competition where new pieces would be a necessity, and that’s agreed upon beforehand.

Coming back to bootleg pieces, considering just how easily painted pieces could be confused for them (and vice versa) I think it would just be a matter of trusting the builders not to use them out of goodwill to Lego, or requiring that they give the precise spraypaint that they used to color the piece or something. May cramp their styles, but that’s the only way I can think of to restrict bootleg pieces (at least those that aren’t distinctively bootleg). It’s a difficult question, though, and walks the boundary of 3d printed pieces and painted pieces.

Lol, again, I’ll thank the reader for making it through this text wall…

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in regards of 3D printed parts im fine with masks only.

Why do we even need custom masks to represent characters with unknown masks? It was not a problem with Miserix, his head is built up, as is Karzahni’s. Why couldn’t these MOCs’ be? It certainly can be done, I’ve seen Gilahu do it. I’m sure others can pull it off too, and that would much more fit with it being a LEGO MOC contest as you’re MOCing the mask using LEGO pieces, not using a 3rd-Party piece.
Some examples:

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I’m in agreement. brought up the point earlier as well.

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After listening to the latest Nak&Jay and reading a lot of comments, very well, I shall participate and give my piece. With any luck, perhaps this will assist in clearing some previous discussions and give more clarity to future ones. So, let’s establish the floor, shall we?

The purpose of the poll is to see if people would be interested in contests that affect the canon of G1 Bionicle. As fun and interesting as the various discussions over 3D printing, bootleg parts, age of MOCs, and others have been, that should be a secondary concern. After all, whether it was a fan contest or an official one, it is not as though such concerns haven’t been addressed and handled before. Its mention of possibility, while important, has only diluted what should be the heart of the issue. As such, I will save any thoughts in regards to those areas for another time. What I am here to discuss is canon and the influence and/or control thereof.

And to do that, we need some definitions.

Canon/Official Material: All materials, regardless of form, if published by the Intellectual Property (IP) creator/owner and/or accepted by the creator of said property is to be considered “canon.” Canon contains all works and materials that are considered to have happened by the owner. Anything that is not accepted or made by/for the owner is not within this canon and thus does not exist within it. These accepted works serve as baseline and law for any who wish to make worked based upon it. That is to say, it is the common building blocks and language for everyone regarding that IP.

Semi-Canon/Hierarchy of Canon: Supplementary materials either published by the IP owner or allowed to be published under the owner’s IP name as semi-official. These materials are only canon in so far as they do not contradict the primary materials as decided by the IP owner. At any time these may be dropped, de-canonized, or regulated to be considered no different than fanon. Normally used in promotion of the canonical material or keep an audience until the next main piece can be released. Such a hierarchy is defined by the IP owner; if not in its entirety then at least the major pieces for the rest to be easily discern by fans.

Fanon: A combination of the words “Fan” and “Canon,” it is commonly taken to mean “Fan created canon,” but that is inaccurate. It would more correctly stated as works derived from another’s IP, with or without the intention of existing or co-existing within that IP, that is not acknowledged and/or accepted by the IP creator/owner. Unless it is otherwise taken upon by the IP owner, fanon holds no official sway or meaning to that IP.

Headcanon/Unofficial Material: Headcanon, while sometimes synonymous with fanon, has some slight variation. While fanon is typically dismissed, headcanon is the result of an individual, or group of individuals, accepting a work as canon regardless of the IP owner accepting or rejecting it as part of their official materials. This can be especially prevalent in the instances where a former representative of the IP owner continues to either contribute to the IP outside of their permitted means. And these fans continue to accept those works as canon despite the individual no longer being a representative for the IP as actively recognized by the IP owner anymore. This can even include current representatives who published created worked and media outside of their delegated responsibilities and the IP owner’s permission.

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In other words, that is to say that Lego (which legally counts as an individual/singular entity), as the creator and owner of Bionicle, is ultimately the only authoritative figure that can say if something is or is not canon. Any who worked on the material for Lego counts as Lego’s official works as it was made for them and for the purposes of their IP. This goes so far as to the winning contest entries of yesteryear whom were accepted by delegated authorities on its behalf.

The question can then be pushed to as to whether Greg Farshtey counts as an official representative/delegate for Lego in the matters of Bionicle. And yes, Greg has certainly ton a lot for the Bionicle community and it is commendable. However, it can be questioned whether his say is truly official any more or if he own comments can now also be regarded as fanon. While good cases can be made for both sides here, for sake of the poll let’s assume that Greg fits the definition of having official delegated authority over such materials.

Which leads us to the question of “What’s the point of it being made canon?” A very prevalent question in this era where the author is long considered dead. For the sake of completion and definition, the idea of, “the author is dead,” being that the creator’s own interpretation is just as valid and/or invalid as the reader’s interpretation. That the creator is not the divine rule maker, just one of many to give their point of view on a certain work. In essence, from this point of view there is no canon, making it indistinguishable from fanon. And thus the only enforcers of any sort of consistency are by the most popular or powerful groups of influence, the headcanon folk.

So, what is so important about canon? As stated earlier, canon creates a baseline, it creates a law. Imagine playing a game that has no rules. Anything can happen, everything can happen, everything is trampled on top of the other. It becomes meaningless as you don’t even have a board or sandbox to play in, you have a void. A void that can be filled with anything as there is no common basis.

And if Bionicle does not sound, read, look, or feel like a void, that’s because it is not. It has a canon, it has a law, it has something that everyone can point to and determine what is and what is not Bionicle. With it, only something things can definitely be Bionicle. Without it, what even is a Bionicle, if it exists at all? And if canon means nothing, or is no different than fanon, then how did you come to like this undefinable thing called Bionicle? Therefore, canon is important as it establishes what Bionicle is and it is those laws and things that make Bionicle and why we care for it.

So now we have established one of many reasons why making something canon is important. It is the law, it is what helps define what Bionicle is, what happened it in, what it’s about, etc. Then what is the importance of a new item becoming canon? If a new thing becomes canon, it is expect that, regardless of what some fans may think, that thing is now law. That is now part of true Bionicle, it is law, and it has to be accepted. It is what everyone can point to and say to others if their interpretation is correct or wrong.

And that is a big concern. Provided Greg can be considered as someone capable of deciding canon, after all this time, should it be done? In general, as someone who’s favorite part of G1 Bionicle was its contests, I would say no. It is something we shouldn’t do, it is far too long past its time. It would change and affect too much, from a lore, MOC, visual, fan fiction, roleplay, and other such perspectives. However, if it is to be done in a limited fashion, and indeed only to give visual representation of canon characters without one, then it might not be a bad thing. Let’s take a look at it briefly from some of those perspectives.

MOCing: Now, as someone who has a Dark Hunter that is a member of Lariska’s species, would it have been great to know what she looked like outside of a written description? My immediate, instinct response would have been a yes. Having something canon to look at would have given a great basis for how to make my character look. But, when I think about it bit more, I retract that viewpoint to a certain point.

As was previously said, having canon appearances for characters like the Toa Mata haven’t stop people from making MOCs of them. While that is true, it is also a false equivalency. People know what they look like, but they’re also the base models, the starting points. The sets are stepping stones of teaching what could be done with the parts. So people are always going to build versions of the character that they think fix or improve the sets. And most often, even with “ultimate” versions of the character, it is uncommon for the builder to be so arrogant as to claim it as the definitive, canon representation of the character.

Now for other characters like Melding Teridax or the Tahtorak? You don’t see many revamps or other interpretative builds of characters/creatures such as those. Why? Well aside from lack of popularity, in cases like Melding Teridax, not many think they could do something better than the existing canon model. The sets are imperfect, they could always be changed or improved. But with some fan models, they can be good enough to the point where it would detract anyone from ever attempting to make their own version. Some are discouraged just by unofficial ones as is, an incredible MOC accepted as canon, even if it does not make the fan reject their own, could lead them to never try.

Granted, these are characters that most won’t attempt anyways, so perhaps there is no long term harm. But it has as much potential to springboard and lead to more MOCs of certain characters as it does to stop them.

Lore/Fan Ficts: Though previously addressed in come other posts, I shall reiterate here. For some characters where mask, weapons, etc. aren’t specified, what’s given to them it can bring into question why it wasn’t ever mentioned or used. While that will hopefully be mitigated, regardless it can destroy some fans’ stories. Some fans are very fickle about keeping it as close to canon as they can, so for suddenly something like a mask to change could invalidate their story for them.

Yes, it was fanon, it was never going to become canon. But the idea that, even though it was best the chance for it, that it could fit in so seamless, has now been destroyed. Upended by a sudden retcon of sorts that came a decade after the fact.

There are always extremes and a bunch of in-between when it comes to these things. Some fans do not care whatsoever if their story works or goes against canon. They’re happy it’s an altverse and that’s that. Others put a lot of time and effort in order to make things work. Whether either group should be given concern will need to be decided by each individual.

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Regardless of what perspective is taken, be it these few mentioned or others further expanded, it will have an affect. For some, it will actively discourage and for others it may springboard new creation. And if the goal was to spur on creation, then by all means, I would say yes. But at this point, to add to canon in such a way, I would have to say no. Too much time has passed, too much has changed. Canon, as is, has inspired many before and it will continue to do so without the need of such additions.

Or perhaps I’m completely wrong. It seems the possible power to have such influence over a stopped story has brought many to life. Maybe it’s legitimate or we still have hungry sharks seeking something to hold over others. Hopefully I am wrong in that aspect. But it does feel to me a lot like others asking Greg questions to get credit for certain things canonized rather than for the good of the fans.

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But if a “headcanon” exists within The Godhead(i.e Greg), couldn’t it still be considered as official canon regardless of whether LEGO chooses to legitimize it? I’m sure it would at least be considered more substantial and valid than an Average-Joe Bionicle fan’s headcanon.

The fundamental flaw is marking Greg as “the godhead.” While he is one of the definitive authorities on BIONICLE and I’m incredibly grateful that he’s been in communication with fans ten years after BIONICLE ended, he did not singly create the story. Several other people – most people will probably single out Christian Faber – collaborated on BIONICLE. Additionally, now that he is no longer being commissioned by LEGO to develop BIONICLE, can it accurately be said that he can determine what is canon?

Let me provide a different scenario that I’m thankful never happened: in 2005, LEGO determines that the Hordika are the worst thing to ever happen to their brand and they sack Greg because for some reason they blame him for it. He’s replaced by a guy we’ll call Gerg Teyfarsh. Teyfarsh is the new authority on canon: he’s being paid by LEGO to make these discernments. Our very own Greg no longer has this power; it has been taken from him by the ones who vested it in him.

Though Greg was never removed or replaced, the end state is still the same: LEGO does not hold him as the current developer of canon, so he cannot officially make any new judgements.

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The reason Greg is the deciding factor is because he is the only remaining member of the BIONICLE story team involved in the theme anymore, still works for LEGO, and was cited by LEGO as being the one to continue the story after it was canceled in 2010. His word is final in terms of canon. You can personally choose to ignore it, but that is the way it is.

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I wanted to respond to one of the new points you made and clear up the reasons why I voted the way I did, since I think things got unnecessarily heated in my last post.

Firstly, let me say that I am not entirely entrenched in my position against holding the contests, and I don’t think that either side is selfish for wanting it one way or the other. Either decision would result in some form of disappointment on the other side. If it did not, there would be no need for a poll; the decision would be unanimous a priori. Both sides have valid arguments, and it is the purpose of this poll to gauge how the opinions are distributed. If you remember, I was actually in favor of the contests at first, but later decided against it. Why? Because I took the time to formulate arguments for both sides in my head, and in the end, to my surprise, I actually found the case against it more compelling.

My logical argument against holding the contests was laid out in my previous posts and remains unchanged, so I won’t belabor it here. But I highly recommend reading @ajtazt’s last post for a thorough walkthrough of the same principles that I used when I made my decision. He (she?) said it much better than I could have, and the post is pretty much 100% percent in agreement with my way of thinking. In particular, his breakdown of what it means for something to be canon is really on-point, especially his explanation of its significance and the very real impact that it has even on fanon and head-canon. One of my central points is that, yes, it has an impact! The argument “if you don’t like it, don’t treat it as canon” is actually inherently a bit selfish on the part of those who want to hold the contests, because it either (A) invalidates the premise of being canon, in which case it is a logically invalid argument, or (B) dismisses the concerns raised by the other side as unfounded and illusory. I believe there are valid reasons for wanting to hold canonization contests, one of which I will respond to below, but this argument is not one of them.

Okay, this seems to be a new type of argument that you have not made before. It seems like you are saying making canonization the prize of a contest would result in higher quality work and more engagement than would otherwise be possible. Okay, I see the case for it, and it may well be true. But the calculation that I made is that it is not necessary to dangle canonization in front of diehard Bionicle fans in order for them to create amazing MOCs or artwork. The way I see it, I see people make beautiful fanon material for the sheer joy of it all the time, and do not think that canonizations are a necessary or appropriate measure to jumpstart it even more. I could very well be totally wrong about this. Maybe by not holding the contests, we would miss out on some real treasures. But when I weigh the options, my gut tells me that refraining from modifying canon at this late stage is the wiser choice.

Well, yes and yes. Those two things do not contradict each other. Of course I voted first according to my own preference, which was guided by the logical reasoning I have laid out before. I can only assume that you did the same, which is completely fair, and I am fine with. That was the purpose of the poll. But I am well aware that the same arguments I used to support my own position – namely, that canonization is an unnecessary imposition on those who would prefer to continue creating fanon or enjoying others’ fanon without having to adapt to late, controversial changes to canon – apply to many others as well, as evidenced by many posts in this thread and the many votes against holding the contests. You suggested a while back that I am being selfish and close-minded for not voting for something that clearly a lot of Bionicle fans want. Doesn’t that just beg the question, why are they not selfish and close-minded for not voting with the minority? I don’t think they are, I think they just weighed the options differently than I did.

Finally, I want to say that criticizing emotions I may or may not have used to make my decision is not a productive way to make your case. You do not know what is going through my head, and regardless of how I formed my arguments, they stand on their own merit. Pay attention to my arguments, not why it annoys you that I hold them. I promise that this exchange will be more constructive if you do.

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Those are so cool! I definitely agree that brick-built masks are a great way to go about it, and the way I personally prefer, though I think having more options (with custom as but one of those options) is ideal.

I would disagree here. This isn’t a dead, or even close-to-dead community (though it may have come close once or twice). A member of the writing team is still active and still willing to add to canon and the older members of the community are still being creative with it, with new returns all the time. The reaction to this poll shows that the community is alive and well, which means that the story, in some sense, is too.

That’s not all. To me, also important is the fact that Bionicle has new fans, fans who are sometimes too young to actually remember the line. Siblings of older fans, lego fanatics, creative sci-fantasy fans; however they found it, there are people new to Bionicle who love the story, find the sets, trawl the wiki and so on, just like we did back in the day. Bionicle has a brilliant expanded universe but so much of that universe lacks a visual aid, and this is a chance to fix that while inviting new fans to try their hand at adding their own flare.

Even among us older-ish fans, while I’ve been a fan of Bionicle since I got Nuju Hordika, I was way too young and web-shy to have actually taken part in any of the contests during the run. My own wish to participate aside (because this isn’t about any one person), I’m absolutely certain that there are many other fans in that position who would love to have a chance. If it aids in the fleshing-out of what we already know to be true but cannot see ourselves, why not let the collective of old and new try it out? If it flops, it flops; nothing really gets lost, and I doubt this reticent community will allow a winner that doesn’t fit with canon to a high standard.

This is another false equivalency. You’re equating large, unique, and story-specific titans with simplistic clone sets like the Mata that have good reason to be in any story you can think of. Similar to your examples, I don’t think I’ve seen too many Kardas Dragon remakes over the years, even though it is a flawed (though very cool) combiner set. This is not just because it’s impressive (I think) but because it’s a physically big beast to tackle, and there isn’t much you can do with the character that isn’t immediately obvious.

Krakua, as an example more similar to the Toa Mata, has had a fair few revamps and redesigns over the years from various artists and MOCcists. I’ve even seen a fair few Miserix designs, which flies in the face of everything we’re talking about because he is both a fan-design and a story-specific titan. The fact that he has a very cool fan-created canon design doesn’t seem to have stopped people.

That all said, I acknowledge your point, but I don’t think people will have their creativity curbed by someone else’s example… Or, at least, I don’t think that’ll happen enough to outweigh the significant positives to storytellers, those who’d appreciate an art reference, new fans who want to have a go and honestly to the health of the community as a whole. I think that these competitions are likely to be more significant than their results, at least to a large proportion of the still-active community.

As far as I’m aware, we know which mask most of the entrants would be wearing already, if any, and the contests wouldn’t be adding any new-to-canon masks to anyone. Maybe there could be face detail that may or may not be a mask of power on someone like Johmak but, as far as I’m aware only the appearance will be canonised, not lore details.

It’s certainly possible that a new appearance could alter a story superficially or even, in certain very specific cases, more materially… However, any fanfiction that relies on being 100% true-to-canon is pretty much already doomed in this franchise; we know where every named character is most of the time, and official sources have contradicted one another and themselves numerous times in the past. That, at least, is unlikely to happen in these competitions.

If the canonical-despite-cancellation, widely-broadcast and truly terrible Dimensions in Time couldn’t kill the Doctor Who fanfic community, I don’t think these little contests will do any real harm to this one. There are many more examples, but that one is actually surprisingly similar to our situation because it was the better part of a decade post-cancellation, entirely official and during a time when nobody really saw Doctor Who returning as a show. It also added to and contradicted established canon, which is not on the cards here, and the Doctor Who fanfiction community at the time was way stronger than you’d expect (a good chunk of it is official nowadays, after all).

I know there’s only so much that another franchise’s fanbase can tell us about our own, but it’s shockingly easy to not care about something that’s inconvenient to care about (oooh, topical). That’s assuming these contests even would pose those inconveniences, which I doubt will be in any way common (though will not discount as someone who doesn’t have a Mask of Clairvoyance handy).

Are those shark dudes even still around? The community is many years older now, and I doubt that we’re as immature a collective as we once were. The newer fans are unlikely to be so arrogant about a canon they are new to, and the older fans (I certainly hope) are predominantly those who stuck with the story through the last ten years of franchise-less fandom, or those who’ve returned in excitement to see more of what they once loved.

I don’t imagine that many people from these groups will feel the need to be kolhii-heads to one another for no reason… and I hope that the rest of us do not allow their potential presence to sway us from a really, really fun idea. Again, I hope that the competitions themselves will be the most significant part of this. People will be inspired by the story as-is, sure, but these competitions will allow folks to
really take part, which is something extremely special.

Also, gotta say, I really appreciate the discussion happening here. Most all of it is mature, thought-through and with the franchise’s best interests at heart, even if there’s the odd bout of negativity.

The issue with this train of logic is that if you assume Greg is not the official representative of the BIONICLE theme (which is an inaccurate assumption, as he has been reinforced as the author of the series twice now over the past ten years through official LEGO channels), then you exclude an immense amount of information over the past 20 years. The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet was posted to BZPower by Greg. Is that not to be consider an official story? Or perhaps, the fan poll for the next Chronicler, which was held on BZPower and started by Greg. At what point do you start drawing the line?

Greg Farshtey represents the theme as has been reaffirmed through the farewell message to fans in 2009, and again in… I want to say 2014 when he moved to the LEGO Message Boards and introduced as the author for the BIONICLE theme. He is an active LEGO writer and employee and has continued to engage in the community ever since the theme was discontinued.

It is my personal opinion that if you consider his word as invalid, despite being the sole member of the story team that continues to interact with the community and provide new insights, then you would see rise to a new level of community arrogance that will do a great deal of damage to discussion, perspective, and community discourse.

This train of logic ends with “He works for LEGO.” That’s about it.

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@ajtazt I commend your comment, a great analysis.

If I can offer my perspective on the matter,

By my understanding of Canon, here

Because all of this is about G1, yes he works at lego, yes he the man for Bionicle, but G1 was officially discontinued so, unless Lego jumps out and says:" we’ll continue the G1 line" the hard canon is closed. Greg provides ‘out of universe’ insight, can inspire talking about what would have been ecc… but in my understanding, the Official Canon of the line stops when the line is discontinued.
That said, I love speculations, stories, fanfics, mocs, the community projects and all that the community built over the years, but I consider it as something different from what was established under Lego, using ajtazt definitions I would say Semicanon or Fanon, this is how I view things at least.
I, for example, would be 100% on board with this contest if the winning mocs/depictions were to be implemented in Biosector01 with the explicit note that these are interpretations of the characters selected by Greg after G1 ended, without official Lego approval.

Just my thoughts.

I’m unclear on how there is any “but” after this. This is all that is required here. If Christian Faber/Alastair Swinnerton were working for LEGO currently and commenting on BIONICLE, would we not also be heeding their remarks? Do we not consider Tommy Andreason still the final word on anything canon in the world of Chima?

They discontinued their product line, correct. They did not discontinue the story. It was continued by Mr. Farshtey up until 2011/2012, when he stopped working on serial chapters for a variety of reasons. But he has not stopped answering questions regarding them since.

BIONICLE is an incredibly unique case where the story was permitted to continue despite the product line ending. No other line has had that. I’m confused by this effort to change that.

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I might be at fault here, but wasn’t one of the main reasons (beside other personal reasons) why he stopped working on them the fact that Lego didn’t want him to continue writing for the line?

Of course but what I’m saying is that those would be their remarks, not official Lego Canon. I would, like always, eagerly listen to all they have to say but I would consider everything as a sort of trivia, speculation or behind the scene thing, anything but official canon from Lego. What I want to say is that Canon for me is what is set in stone by Lego itself and they shutted down G1, it officially ended.

Is Greg listed as currently working on G1 bionicle on behalf of Lego? Would he still be able to finish the serials or make other additions to the lore now with Lego recognising it as official for their discontinued Line? If, hypotetically, Lego was to pick up G1, continue it, and produce sets of characters whose depictions were “officialized” in this contest, they could simply ingnore those designs and create their own, because they were never set in stone by Lego itself to begin with.[quote=“ajtazt, post:239, topic:51213”]
These materials are only canon in so far as they do not contradict the primary materials as decided by the IP owner. At any time these may be dropped, de-canonized, or regulated to be considered no different than fano
[/quote]
I think this extract from ajtazt’s definition of Semi-canon perfectly describes the situation.

I don’t know how to better explain my point of view, I understand what you mean and I agree with it, I’d really like this contest to take place, only I’d prefer if it was not labled as official Lego canon but as something else, like G1EU or something like that… I think that ajtazt explained really well what I’m struggling to express here with the definitions of Canon, Semicanon, Fanon and Headcanon. Everything made by Greg after the end of G1 I consider as “Headcanon/Unofficial Material” with the exception of the Serials that would be categorized as “Semi-Canon/Hierarchy of Canon”.

Sorry if this is a bit of a mess, I’m not very good with english, hopefully it makes sense.

Forgive me for the edit, I forgot this

with which i wholeheartedly agree

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No, It was mainly because lego didn’t want to keep paying for legal checks for new names, and obviously, to have a plot that actually goes somewhere, you kinda need to introduce new characters, and for the most part, they need names.

Yeah, so they stopped him from writing, the fact that it was for money or anything else doesn’t matter, for one reason or the other Lego didn’t want him to write for the line anymore and that marks the end of the official territory, at least for me.

Well, in theory he could, but it’s difficult to write a story and not introduce any new characters, especially for villains. Fighting the same villain, in roughly the same way, (Because remember, you can’t add any new minions, only reuse existing ones) will get boring eventually.

So i know most people are concerned with all the rules and technicalities regarding this potential contest, but I wanted to have a quick aside to discuss which characters you want to actually be included in this contest.

I, for one, would really like to see canon depictions of the pre-mutation Barakki.

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Varian, and at least one toa of every element, (Assuming we actually have one) That way, I can finally figure out the color ratios for each element.

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