POLL: BIONICLE G1 Canonization Contests?

You seem to misunderstand my objection. My problem is not that the winner would be a bad moc, or not fitting for what we currently know of Marendar. My problem is how much it allows you to fill in what we don’t know of Marendar. It could be amazing and I’m sure if it wins it would be, but it’s a MOC being made on very limited information, and thus will fill in a lot more than any other would, and I don’t think that power should just be given to a fan for a character as major as Marendar is supposed to be.

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While Marendar is definitely supposed to be major, he hasn’t actually appeared, only mentioned to have done things. The creative freedom being given makes me excited for the possibility of a Marendar contest, whereas if we had a Helryx contest, the end result will 100% be a blue female Toa of Water relatively comparable to existing Toa.

I understand the objection but there’s practically no middle ground between your two categories you listed earlier. Most characters who have made more than one appearance have a level of detail comparable to Helryx or even to the Hagah, and those who don’t would tread a similar path as Marendar. Only a small handful of characters don’t have confirmed, canon appearances, and this qualification cuts the number down significantly. We barely have any identification of what the Gold-Skinned Being looks like; does that mean we couldn’t have a contest to determine it?

I do mostly agree with your first specification though, but I think it needs to be refined a bit. Having a contest where you have to build all the Hagah is fine by me, as then you have to determine a relatively uniform appearance for an entire team while still keeping them recognizable. However I don’t think we should have a contest for, oh, Nidhiki, whose appearance while not exactly canonized is so universally recognized that all the entries would be identical. That’s just silly.

Pretty much. It would mostly come down to who can build a cooler scythe.

But that kind of freedom is exactly why Marendar’s appearance shouldn’t be decided by fans without further canon information. Him not actually appearing should be a knock against him as that means we don’t even have a character to base the appearance on. We know nothing of Marendar’s actual personality or what his character is supposed to be.

There’s plenty of middle-ground. I already mentioned Helryx. There’s also Lariska, the Yesterday Quest toa, Artakha, maybe even the GSB, which…

We still have somewhat of a baseline with him. The obvious being, well, he’s gold, but he’s also made from the Piraka and several other beings. We don’t know as much of him as other characters but there’s a lot more to go off of than Marendar.

We initially thought about doing contests for them, however we’ve recently rescinded that as we want to discuss first about how far we’d want to see these even go. We’ve sent Greg a list of characters to see if there are any he’d like to have excluded, but the list contains characters we’re interested in seeing about contests for. The only pre-mutation characters (from what I recall) on that list are the Toa Hagah.

Additionally, I wanted to say something regarding which characters we’re most interested in. I made sure very early on that we agreed on only characters are named and have speaking roles in the story. Could this change? Certainly. But I see no use in trying to get appearances for characters that are unnamed and/or have no speaking roles in the story. This way, we avoid things like the entirety of Lhikan’s Team, or the rest of the Toa Cordak. AKA characters that no one needs visuals for since they are merely figures to fill the world, as opposed to ones that interact on screen with characters that are sets.

Real quick, while I’m here, I would like to make mention of something. Nidhiki and Tuyet were - like the rest of the Toa Mangai - Toa that were assembled from a wide array of islands to assist Lhikan. As such, there is no guarantee that they would resemble Lhikan. Same goes for the Toa Hagah. The only Toa that we can reasonably assume looks like Lhikan is Toa Dume.

Simply something to consider.

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As a turdposter who actively benefits from mass salt, I may be biased, but I would like to say:

Great, thanks for reminding me how long it’s been, now I just feel old.

I get what you’re saying, but my point is that that’s good. All we know is that Marendar is a robot, which will give us so many varied takes that won’t be hindered by popular headcanons or MOC-memes like Lariska, who consistently appears with Rahkshi/Vahki heads to the point where it’s kind of bland. But Marendar? He’s humanoid, that’s all we know. Without any popular image to skew people’s expectations, the voters will be forced to pick whatever they legitimately think fits best.

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We have a brief description of what he’s supposed to be, and that’s really all we need - a Toa Hunter, designed to be the ultimate killing machine, potentially capable of wiping out armies of Toa. Similar to other MU beings but with a more mechanical aspect, as he only gained consciousness when Toa energy was detectable on the planet.

Already many people would be getting different concepts of what he would look like. The freedom here can be utilized for a greater yield while still being true to the character, and as Keksalot said,[quote=“SirKeksalot, post:363, topic:51213”]
the voters will be forced to pick whatever they legitimately think fits best.
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And that will force people to give a more definitive take on the character instead of something radical. Your other characters are somewhat good middle ground, but the issue there is that the rules are simply colour and general size - the door for more wild interpretations are more available than Marendar. Search any Lariska MOC - if it has some teal and a robot arm, it qualifies the description.[quote=“Eljay, post:362, topic:51213”]
Nidhiki and Tuyet were - like the rest of the Toa Mangai - Toa that were assembled from a wide array of islands to assist Lhikan. As such, there is no guarantee that they would resemble Lhikan. Same goes for the Toa Hagah. The only Toa that we can reasonably assume looks like Lhikan is Toa Dume.
[/quote]

Fair point.

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Isn’t she blue and green, not blue-green? Regardless, the thing with Lariska is that there’s a load of “MOC memes” you see consistently in interpretations of the character. Somehow, she almost always has a Rahkshi or Vahki head, or something resembling one of those. It’s gotten better in recent years, but we’re still likely to see a LOT of those “memey” entrants if we get a Lariska contest.

I only recently found out that her armor color is turquoise.

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Understood. I still think general species contests would be a good thing to keep in mind for the future, though, if these do well, along with rahi that have significant story roles.

That’s the thing. We don’t want to see every cracked filled in the BIONICLE story. Just important characters. Otherwise, you allow things to run too rampant, and we’ve seen how people react to that.

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It’s not a matter of creative freedom; it’s a matter of canon control. For example, let’s say i submit this moc (which i just threw together in five Minutes, imagine a more detailed Moc) as Helryx.

What have i just canonized?

  • That Helryx has dark blue and blue as her specific shades of blue
  • a look for the mask of Psychometry (maybe)
  • her eye color.

That’s it. Two minor details, and one major detail – and that’s not even the case if there’s seperate contests for masks. But if i establish this same model as marendar, I’ve canonized:

  • that he’s blue
  • specifically dark/medium blue
  • that he has a mace.
  • that he has a mask/helmet
  • that he looks like a Toa (general proportions, human shape, exactly two arms/legs/eyes, no tail/wings, etc.)
  • his eye color

So many major details, much more than Helryx. And this limits the creativity of future moccists. Now, if anyone wants to make an accurate Marendar moc, it has to be blue, have a mace, etc.

Whoa, hold on there.

Firstly, you’d need to get the community to agree that this is, without a doubt, the best possible identity for Marendar. Good luck.
Then you need Greg to say ‘yes, I agree that Marendar being as basic as possible with a blue colour scheme, a HF mask, and a mace is definitely canon’. Good luck.
And finally, you will need people willing to build their own version(s) of your model solely because it exists and has Greg’s blessing. Good luck.

You are more likely to taint the original character or Greg’s reputation than you are to stifle creativity. Canon control is moot if the end result looks nothing like what the author, Greg, would prefer it to be - and he always has the right to say No for any reason he wants. So feel free to add Ben10 Surge with a mace as Marendar; he’ll never become canon.

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The moc isn’t the point. The point is what any moc would establish about Marendar, vs what any moc would establish about Helryx.

And of course I’d submit a good moc for a Helryx/Marendar contest. I just don’t feel like spending a few hours or more to make a quality moc just to make an argument.

Although…

Now I’m tempted to do that.

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Yeah. That’s kind of the point of the contest; to establish the appearance of Marendar. Or Helryx. Or any character, for that matter.

Thing is, whether it’s tiny or huge, you’re establish brand-new info about any given character. Characters where nearly nothing is unknown aren’t nearly as interesting to have contests for as characters with everything to be determined. I wouldn’t want to have a contest to determine the canonical appearance of Marvah because nearly everything is already established; why bother?

I don’t mean to create everything. It would probably get a bad reaction to host a contest for every single rahi in Voyage of Fear (though I would be all for it, that sounds awesome). I just meant contests for samples of some major species with no depictions. As we know from The Shadowed One’s species, species can have a lot of variation within them.

Keep in mind though, that I am of the mindset that mystery is only useful as far as it promotes creativity. I think that having contest for everything would be worth loosing that mystery just to see all the great ideas, MOCs, and art that the community has to offer. That’s why I voted as I did.

Also the gold-skinned being should be an art contest, since it’s next to impossible to create a Bionicle figure that looks like it has ‘skin’.

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To say that it is JUST one or the other is folly. It’s both, and that’s the point of the contest to start with.

No more than already-canon characters limit revamps of them. There’s a variety of revamps out there which don’t conform perfectly to trends set by the originals. Not only that, but just google “Marendar” now and see what varied results you get. You really think people are gonna stop making their own new takes on characters just because some things are now written in stone? Especially out of the people who don’t agree with holding the contests to begin with?

Even with someone as iconic as Tahu, the most uniformity I see in every single MOC of him is what mask he has and what color he is. A lot of them do look similar, but that’s because they’re based on a specific set. You can still totally reinterpret his design and have it be a valid MOC.

Who says they have to?

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You misunderstand; I’m not saying the contest is one or the other, I’m stating what the argument is. You’re arguing that a Marendar contest would be good because of the creative freedom it allows – a point i don’t disagree with. I’m arguing that it would be bad because of how much it establishes about the story/character.

No one has to, of course. This is a debate that’s been held so many times over the course of this topic, and the Nak and Jay, but it boils down to: some people don’t care about adhering to canon. But some do.

To put it most simply: you mentioned people making various different interpretations of Tahu. But if i were to make a green four-armed moc with claws, I’d be hard-pressed to call it ‘tahu’. I certainly could, but not if I want to be even remotely accurate to his official appearance. But if i make a metru red and gold tahu with fire swords and a Hau, it may not match Tahu 100%, but it is a valid reinterpretation that’s recognizable as Tahu.

Right now, a red, four-armed moc is just as canonically valid as a blue humanoid as a depiction of Marendar. But if the blue humanoid gets canonized, then the red four-armed moc no longer fits Marendar’s canon appearance, because Marendar isn’t red and doesn’t have four arms. Some moccists won’t care about that; but some will.

Contrast this with Helryx. Since she’s a Toa of water, we already know she’s blue; we already know she has a mace. If a moc like the one i posted earlier were to be canonized, and someone else had a light blue Helryx, it would be similar to a metru red and gold tahu: not 100% accurate, but still accurate enough, for those who care about accuracy in appearance.


Of course. That’s the crux of this whole topic, from day one. Any moc contest will establish new canon details; the question is how much canon we’re willing to establish.

Something like Helryx’s eye color, hand color, general look, are minor details. Stuff like what weapon a character has, what color they are, how many arms they have, are major details that many people would prefer not be canonized through a fan contest – if that wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t need a poll.

There are small canon details that can be established without upsetting too many people. But there’s a line between minor details and major details, and Marendar falls way past that line.

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Then let’s only have characters we practically already know entirely be given contests, so as to offend as few people as possible.

Look, this argument is a bit ridiculous. Rather than define something about a very well-known character, which we have little info on, and which fans have been really wanting to properly comprehend for years, this argument supports drawing the line between what we know and what we don’t know so far back that any small mysteries are solved, and any great ones aren’t.

In that case, why have contests at all? If you’re only willing to allow the confirmation on rather irrelevant things like eye colour, then there’s no point in having a contest. Which you did make the point of:[quote=“Racie02, post:375, topic:51213”]
Stuff like what weapon a character has, what color they are, how many arms they have, are major details that many people would prefer not be canonized through a fan contest – if that wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t need a poll.
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But that point is shot down rather simply when you look at the results of the poll. ‘Many’ is about 75 out of 417. That leaves 296 people who actually want this to occur, barring 37 people who don’t care either way and 8 people who chose a fourth option, at the time of this post.

I would say many more people are interested in seeing this occur, no matter what the character is - Helryx or Marendar. I’m not really interested in a contest about Tren Krom’s favorite colour when I could partake in a contest to finally comprehend what the GSB looks like.

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They kind of…don’t have canon to adhere to right now. They have “Marendar is a robot” and that’s it. What are they doing now, then?

Because Tahu is defined by an existing set, and he’s one of the founding members of the cast. We’ve known what he looks like since the first nanosecond of the franchise’s release. The same can’t be said for a character who has spent an actual decade as an abstraction. Whatever gets canonized, people will probably continue to make more varied interpretations of him because that’s how they’ve had to make out for several years.

“Many” in this case being not even a fifth of the community, assuming the poll proportionally represents the whole fandom. Compare this to nearly 3/4 who do want this, under a tenth who doesn’t care, and 1% who has said “I’m not part of this system.”

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