POLL: BIONICLE G1 Canonization Contests?

LEGO BIONICLE
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172

Then perhaps it would be more reasonable to not even have separate competitions for mask and the moc, and just require the entries for the masks build the mocs to showcase them.

And by “mere art” it certainly isn’t a slight against art or artists (as one who’s lucky to count BionicleChicken as a friend) but art for Bionicle has generally been a halfway point between a storyline role and a formal realization in the form of a moc. Take the characters that are only canonically represented by art–Surel, Kirbold, Nikila–these are all side characters, ultimately. Characters are remembered by their mocs, and it while sick canon artistic representations for characters such as the Hagah would be really cool (would showcase them in-world, for example–especially since they were never used in the comics) there should nevertheless be an official corresponding moc, since those are the bread and butter of Bionicle and its characters.

173

On what grounds? At least some, like Bulk’s 1.0 helmet, could easily work as a kanohi.

No, I said that canon vs. fanon is a matter of semantics in terms of what the contest accomplishes. If a design is official, it’s official and it’s what the character looks like in the official narrative sold by Lego. Regardless of what you call it, people can still form their own headcanons as they please.

That’s how canon works. That’s how every piece of canon in every work of fiction ever works. Your position, whether or not you intend for it to do so, advocates against the very notion of canon.

That reason being…what? That not everyone’s gonna be satisfied with the result? Yeah, no kidding. That’s how every contest has gone before, not just in Bionicle but in everything that’s ever had contests.

Call it canon, call it fanon, it’ll have the same outcome. And you’ll still have the problem of people not being happy with the result, by the way.

And not holding the contests, as the poll shows, will also step on a lot of toes. Most of the toes, in fact.

Except the things I already said we’d lose out on.

174

I would like moc versions of the rest of the Makuta including a non-mutated ver. of Miserix.
Also, I’m against using CCBS pieces for our canon moc’s. I have my own personal reasons as to why (the CCBS system being absolute garbage) but I think that the system itself wouldn’t be fit for the canon. So if you had all the canonized OOMN mocs on your shelf and CCBS system pieces were required to build Helryx, she would stand out and it would look dumb.

175

It’s been about ten years since Bionicle ended, Lego parts have changed drastically since then, Who’s to say that some of the pieces that we have now won’t be able to better translate a creator’s ideas into reality? If custom parts are allowed, don’t think there should be any other limit on what parts can be used.

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176

Hm, maybe with the ratio of system/CCBS/technic/uuuh… clikits? Duplo? Znap? shrug I guess there could also be a ratio for custom parts?

177

Okay, I’m going to be a sourpuss and draw some hard lines for what we’ll put on BS01 should any of this come to pass (and that’s still a huge question mark for the time being).

1. No Custom Models/3D Printed Parts: Yes yes, boo me all you want. Every contest so far has had the rule of not including custom, modified, or otherwise non-LEGO parts, and that’s got to stand. I’ve got plenty of reasons why I personally think it’s a bad idea, but as for the official reason why, it’s coming down to the way the marketplace works. Making things open source is not only unfair to the people that do this for living, but also a wild wild west of checking and enforcing the rule. Say somebody makes a custom arm with two pin holes, but isn’t paying attention to this or doesn’t want to de-monetize it. Somebody else modifies that to be an arm with one pin and one axle hole, and then makes that open source. Not only is the legality of that questionable, but the contest hosts can’t be expected to check every single new piece for fairness, especially in more complicated builds where we might not be able to even see it.

Frankly, as a LEGO Ambassador, I don’t want to be put in the position of having to say “yes, we’re presenting this non-LEGO product as an official facet of LEGO, how do you do.”

2. No depictions of characters we already have images for/know what they look like: That goes for the Hagah as well (they would literally just be Metru builds, c’mon) and things like the Barraki, but we don’t another Kyry situation. Invalidating work that has come before already applies to how we look at new story information, and it will extend to here as well. By the same token, that applies to adding in things that would have to be, essentially, backdoor canon; “Oh, Johmak has a pet Rahi she keeps with her that was never mentioned, surprise!” ain’t gonna fly.

3. No previously used creations: I know this rule hasn’t been enforced consistently in the past (not that I’ve ever changed my opinion on it), but submitting previous creations, even if they were intended to be of the same subject, flies in the face of creativity and the idea that people are challenging themselves and one other to be the best. Plus, if the stated reason for doing these contests at all is “so people can envision a character” (not my favorite argument, but anyway) I would think that something that has already been submitted might have an unfair advantage of already being in the popular consciousness.

I’m sure there are other things to hammer out if (and again, that’s still a monumentally huge if) these contests were to proceed, but I’m drawing some lines in the sand. Feel free to @ me.

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178

This topic is certainly… charged.

Fun fact, I’m actually against the idea of Canonization contests as a whole - I think they resulted in both some of the coolest, and absolute dumbest parts of Bionicle G1. That being said, I’m going to echo the sentiments given by Eljay and Ghid, namely what do we have to lose?

For people concerned about the Custom Piece economy - my question to you is exactly how will this affect it? People aren’t going to suddenly want to pay hundreds of dollars for a 3D printed mask just because Greg/the Community say it’s Canon. And Lego, for what it’s worth, isn’t involved in this in any proper way. These contests are, at their heart, “suggest Ideas to the author” and I don’t see how that’s necessarily a bad thing. Similarly with the issues of people ripping off designs - I truly believe that it is NOT our place to police this. Shapeways and the community as a whole have the resources to keep this in check, seriously, It will NOT take that long to name every Bionicle Modeller who has the skills to enter something into these contests and win. Failure to use the resources afforded by Shapeways/the Community is NOT a failing of the contest.

While I can sympathize from an accessibility standpoint, which is to say “people with less money will have less ability to get cool parts with which to win these contests” I ask how that’s any different than the situation we live in now? People with more money can buy more of the now-limited supply.

For people concerned about the idea of these contests 'stepping on toes" my question for you becomes, “What about the people who designed Toa Jaller and Toa Hahli years before the Inika were a thing?” If we base what’s true to the story on a collective interpretation, we’re only solving some of the issues that caused Bionicle to die in the first place - namely, that there’s too much going on and too much of it is barely explored. RSG is making it their mission to create a fanon for the Matoran Civil War, and I guarantee there are people out there who are feeling stepped ALL over based on a group of fans setting out to depict every mask ever mentioned.

More to the point, 3D modelling has become a HUGE aspect of how this fandom stays alive. To completely write off an artistic expression because of fear of knockoffs or people being angry is kind of a weird notion. Like, what happens if an artist WANTS their model that’s now “canon” to one type of obscure mask because the community voted to be free anyways?

In essence, my understanding of these contests is that Greg will consider what is depicted Canon. Not that it’s suddenly the be all end all for the community, but that the writer will consider these canon.

For a dead storyline, specifically g1.

Whoop-Dee-Doo.

What a lot of this speculation occurring right now, in a poll asking if there SHOULD be contests in the first place, is literally people jumping the gun and freaking out before ANYTHING has been decided or even really considered. To come out of the gate before ANYTHING is known for sure saying that we should outright ban xyz or that you’ll not allow xyz is the kind of thing that can be figured out once an actual FORMAT for these actually gets worked on.

These might all be complete non-issues. I vote yes, and bring the pitchforks out later. Freaking out over what might happen is a useless endeavor when the question is should we look into Canon contests in the first place.

~Hawkeye

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179

While I understand the sentiment being conveyed in this last line, I do feel the need to point out that some people may only be open to such contests if they are conducted in a certain way, and if they were to discover that said contests would not be conducted in such a manner then they would rather vote against the contests taking place as a whole. Sure, we should take all of these discussions with a grain of salt, but I don’t think it would be correct to dismiss these concerns as irrelevant to the current conversation, how these contests are conducted has a great bearing upon whether or not people will want them to happen.

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180

Consider the following:

  1. A MOC which overuses CCBS shells will probably just not look good or resonate with the community anyway, since the system is already so divisive.

  2. There are genuinely useful CCBS parts which don’t have to break the aesthetic of G1. Those bone pieces can work wonders for a frame without sticking out. And what about the “uniter” piece from the '16 sets? That absolutely looks like a G1 piece, it just…isn’t one.

  3. Are we not allowed to use System parts, either? Those aren’t Bionicle, so can we not use them? The system a part technically comes from is ultimately an arbitrary detail as long as it works in the MOC overall.

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181

Just curious: are writing competitions up in the air as well? I remember when BIONICLE.com had those for certain set characters. Or is Greg gonna handle expanding any more lore or stories?

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182

As per yesterday’s Nak & Jay, it doesn’t seem that will happen. This is purely to give characters designs.

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183

Any story content has to get approved by Lego, which is part of the reason it hasn’t been done in a long time.

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184

Apologies, did not watch that. Have been a bit behind on TTV stuff in general…

That makes sense. So these contests are largely for needed visuals in BIONICLE lore?

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185

Which is perfectly fair, in which case, discussion of exactly how to go about doing these things so as not to cause problems than it is to state “IF THIS HAPPENS WE WILL IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS NOT BE ALLOWING X”

For example, the point that has been brought up a couple times about 3D modellers having their designs ripped off. The way I see it, that is not related to the contests, as Shapeways and the community as a whole have resources with which to police plagiarism. A failure to utilize those resources does not constitute a failure of the contest’s format.

IMPORTANT UPDATE FOR CLARIFICATIONS SAKE
The Bionicle Community has a history of jumping to conclusions and creating more work than necessary for itself in the long run. This is just another case of such. This poll is LITERALLY “Would you like them, or would you not.” Deciding to start arbitrarily saying “no” before any real discussion about what a contest would look like or how it would take shape or what it would even be on is basically jumping the gun and ENTIRELY counter productive. While the discourse of what should/shouldn’t be done is valuable, I take issue with the people dealing in siths absolutes on something that, quite frankly, doesn’t exist yet.

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186

People aren’t arbitrarily saying no without discussion, the discussion is happening and people are drawing their lines in the sand based around that discussion. This not only is not counterproductive, it is the only way progress can happen, a discussion is taking place and as that discussion moves away from what people deem acceptable they are going to draw the line at what they will not stand for.

So, I know politics are a no go on the boards, but I’m just using it as an analogy here: to ask whether or not people are interested in these contests is like asking about free healthcare without bringing up how it will affect taxes, the topics are irrevocably linked, people’s interest in such contests is entirely dependent on how those contests will be handled.

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187

You are repeating the same argument, to which I basically have the same response. You say that there is no difference between calling it canon and fanon, and at the same time you claim that the contest result should count as the official version. Which is it? Does it count, or does it not count? I feel that you have still not adequately explained why this is not logically inconsistent. And if it is somewhere in between, why can’t you be satisfied with calling your favorite MOC fanon, which imposes no expectations on other people’s interpretations, rather than canon, which by definition implies a sense of expectation on others’ interpretations?

That’s a good point, but I don’t think it’s true. I am arguing that the cost of introducing new canon MOCs is too high because it unnecessarily imposes on others’ existing or potentially future interpretations. It is unnecessary because you can get the same elation of coming up with concrete interpretations from fanon. At the same time, I accept the existing models from Lego as canon because they already exist, and I have already invested emotional energy in those interpretations. They are what attracted me to the Bionicle fandom in the first place, because they met my standard of quality. I would not now be advocating for my position if they did not. I acknowledge that you have to start with something canonical, or else there is no Bionicle or fandom to begin with. I am, however, not in favor of the idea of ordaining some fans’ personal interpretations as canon, just for the sake of making something canon. Plus, as I explained before, I think that the provenance of the canon MOCs matters, and that models that came from Lego are of a different category from those that came from the community. I know that you disagree on this point, so I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

Well, because they are helmets, not masks. They sit atop the head rather than attaching to the port on the face. I find this offputting because it is inconsistent with the lore. But if they had the same shape but could connect to the face like normal masks, I think I would be okay with retconning them as Kanohi masks.

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[quote=“Kini_Hawkeye, post:185, topic:51213”]
For example, the point that has been brought up a couple times about 3D modellers having their designs ripped off. The way I see it, that is not related to the contests, as Shapeways and the community as a whole have resources with which to police plagiarism. A failure to utilize those resources does not constitute a failure of the contest’s format.[/quote]
While I am admittedly unfamiliar with how Shapeways addresses these issues, I would argue that we should consider how those systems work before we think to use them. My perspective is that if there is any chance of somebody unethically profiting, either before or after the fact, from something that is ostensibly sanctioned by LEGO, then as representative of a Registered LEGO Online Communuity, I’m not going to touch that with a ten foot pole.

While I nominally agree with this perspective, that would also assume the impetus of the poll hadn’t come from “hey this is cool we should do it”. Judging from some posts I have seen in this topic, it almost seems like a foregone conclusion. If the entire focus on the poll was the poll itself, there shouldn’t have been a discussion section at all.

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189

Look at the very first post. That’s an arbitrary No. People drawing the line is one thing, but people drawing lines when we don’t even know what beach we’re on is a problem.

And yes, their interest will be entirely focused on how these things are handled, but that doesn’t mean that we need to forget that it’s still up in the air and the actual logistics of these are being discussed but not decided. Greg wants to know if there’s community interest first, and while it’s explicitly linked to how the contests would be handled, there’s a HUGE leap between “Should we do contests?” and “We want to let you know we will in no way be allowing X,Y, or Z in the Canon Contests” as though they’re a for sure thing.

I mean this is the heart of the 3D modelling communities grey legal area in the first place. At this point, people ARE profiting off of something ostensibly sanctioned by lego - because lego hasn’t cease and desisted all the modellers creating things based on their IP and their product, and designed to be compatible with such. Lego’s Product that, last I head, they have a patent on.

190

Actually…

All Lego-related shops on Shapeways temporarily had their products removed from the site a few months ago. However, that was only because of the use of trademarked terms like “Lego” or “BIONICLE” in the descriptions of the products, and not the product’s existence itself.

191

Well yeah, and Lego was willing to let it go as long as all references to Lego or Bionicle were removed. They would’ve been well within their rights to shut those products down permanently if they had so chosen.

Tis why the argument is a weak one - Lego has demonstrated that they are not interested in ending the 3D modelled Bionicle part market.

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