The discussion over in the “Romance in Brickonicle” topic took a very interesting turn, but unfortunately it seems a bit off subject going from a discussion of romance to relationships in general. So, here is a new topic to discuss what form we think the Toa’s relationships should take.
This seems like an important subject, because I’ve heard that one of the best ways to define a character is through there relationships.
Roughly speaking, all personal relationships are divided into three groups.
According to Aristotle:
Note that these groups are very loose, and contain many very different kinds of relationship. The main purpose of these groups is the illustrate what relationships are “compatible.” As a relationship changes, it can move from on group to another, however two relationships in different categories cannot simultaneously coexist.
Concerning the Toa, I think that there are two parts to this discussion, the relationship between the individual heroes, and an overall team zeitgeist. These things can be in contradiction with each other, but that will lead to conflict which must be resolved.
Personally, I feel that the group zeitgeist was the most important and distinctive part of each Toa team (often even more than the characters themselves), and it seems very important to preserve those themes, however others my not feel the same way.
Rather amazingly they actually represented the three virtues,
the mata had to get along like family, unity,
the metru needed to prove themselves and then save the matoran, duty,
and the inika had to find the kanohi ignika and revive mata nui, destiny.
Obviously they all included all three virtues, but each team exemplified one.
Those are good points, I feel that a big part of preserve the team dynamics is to define them.
For the Toa Mata, I’ve always felt that they had a very familial bond, (very much in the equal/Alike category) even their fights were petty things, easily put aside and picked up again, like sibling squabbles.
The Toa Metru, in contrast, were a bit more like a bunch of unqualified interns. They didn’t know each other very, they were working things out as the went along, and it was clear in their group that there weren’t really any existing structure, or natural antipathies. Vakama and Onewa’s rivalry was more situational than the more personal squabbles of Tahu and Kopaka.
However, they G1 Mata were all in the same boat; they had to work together in order to save the island as they did not know any other choice they could make.
The toa metru didn’t have this same sibling-like bond as they were from different regions, and were, in essence the stereotype of their respective region. They argued because they just didn’t mesh together, as evident in the story.
TTV’s G3 Toa Mata are more like the Metru than the G1 mata when it comes to relationships: they’ve been on the island for a period of time already, and, most likely, took hold of their region’s stereotypes. The TTV already said the regions are not on good terms with each other, so when the toa get turned into matoran, they don’t gain a family like bond, or at least not yet. This would take time to break through the stereotype barriers. During this time, it is only natural for the warriors to develop a “blood brother” bond of friendship, and perhaps more so than that.
That is completely correct. The G1 Toa Mata, even if they couldn’t remember it, were raised together, the G3 Toa Mata were not. So I suppose the question is, what kind of people would they be to form that kind of bound under those circumstances?
(That is, of course, assuming that we agree preserving this group theme is important)
I would definitely assume that the group idea would be kept, but I think the only changes would be additions, and not cuts, for how the toa, matoran, etc. interact.
It would be a challenge though, to get those personalities perfect on every level of “power” and maturity the toa get, so who knows what they really will be like at the moment (though I would say they would match their G1 counterparts very closely)!
Well, I guess that’s the point of this exercise; first we figure out what characters would act this way under these circumstances, and from there the characters tell us how they would play out in future situations. (“Gardening,” I think Viper called it in the last podcast)
Perhaps as part of it we should try staggering the Toa’s ages. For example, I heard the suggestion that Onua would have an actual wife and family, making him one of the older/more mature members of the group, while (fem)Lewa could be the youngest, which could help explain his supportive/protective attitude towards her.
(I’ve always felt the Onua was sort of the “group dad,” in G1, and G2)
I’d say it combines the best of both worlds hut still keeps the to a at their core personalities.
And I could actually see Onua as both an actual father and a figurative father for the group!
So, here’s a perspective I think some people are lacking when talking about the psuedo-“familial bond”.
Firstly, I’ve already gone into the psychology of the Westermarck Effect, and how romance within the Toa isn’t relatable to that. That’s already written up, though.
There’s another thing that I really don’t get with this, and that is that there can’t be a family dynamic among the group with romance involved.
A lot of my friends have older siblings. Some of these older siblings are married. The spouses of these siblings are referred to as brothers or sisters-in-law. Once they enter the family, they immediately fit in with and were treated as siblings by the other siblings in the family - because they were.
To me, having brothers-in-law and sisters-in-law still very much functioned as an active and core part of the family dynamic. Of course, the relationship between the married sibling and their spouse was that of a husband and wife, but that did not interfere with the family dynamic, or make it less.
So when people bring up how romance would mess up the psuedo-“family dynamic”, I feel like they’re actively missing how such a dynamic can work within a family.
Although, I still don’t get the relevance of the Westermarck Effect. We aren’t suggesting that the Toa actually regard each other of adopted siblings.
Honestly, until one of the TTV members actually purposes a romance subplot, I don’t really care about the romance discussion, and am perfectly willing to approach the subject with an open mind.
The Inika, on the other hand, I honestly can’t figure out. There were 4 leader figures among them, and Matoro was the only one who got properly fleshed out.
The way I see the Ignika, they were a series of one-on-one relationships. They all knew each other before becoming Toa, and they all seem to think of one-another individually, outside of the team context. (which, in itself was a unique team dynamic)
(“Gardening,” I think Viper called it in the last podcast)