Should the Toa and Matoran be the same height? [POLL]

[TeslaEffect]

This is a fan made and fictional theme. It doesn't have to be realistic.

It has to be believable, and what everyone is suggesting for the Matoran to be ( wimps that are inferior in any way to the Toa) is not believable....especially now that its going primarily system.

[PeppyBricks]

The matoran don't have to be wimps though, the toa should just be superior to the the matoran is all we're saying, as to show that the toa are reliable. As said in the last podcast, if all the matoran and the toa are the same size what's the point of the toa? The matoran would be physically capable of almost everything the toa are (Just not the elements of course). Is this elemental thing so important that it would be ALL the toa receive after being chosen by the Gods? It just doesn't make much sense.

[TeslaEffect]

The matoran don't have to be wimps though, the toa should just be superior to the the matoran is all we're saying, as to show that the toa are reliable.

And the matoran are unreliable...so believable, such message, very inspirational,

As said in the last podcast, if all the matoran and the toa are the same size what's the point of the toa?

Whats the point of them being the same race if you are just going to make that not important....and not the same race in the end.

Is this elemental thing so important that it would be ALL the toa receive after being chosen by the Gods?

It seems like you think thats a small thing they get.

Because the Benders were totally needed to be physically larger than others to appear more powerful.

They seemed to manage with their elemental abilities despite being the same average size as the rest of the humans.

It just doesn't make much sense.

Of course it does, it makes sense in the world of Star Wars, Avatar, and most of the Super Heroes of DC and Marvel (some of which still retain human stature despite getting supernatural powers)....

[IllustriousVar]

And the matoran are unreliable...so believable, such message, very inspirational,

I think the need to make our fictional race of beings adhere to a certain statute of physical traits simply to make our fantasy characters in a fantasy world more "believable" is a bit silly if you ask me.

They should be believable in the since that they have emotions and personalities that give them life. The 'believability' of their anatomy is really irrelevant to their role in the story.

Whats the point of them being the same race if you are just going to make that not important....and not the same race in the end.

Because the importance comes from their experiences as characters...
They are directly connected to the world because they've lived in it their whole lives, they aren't foreign or alien to the matoran universe like the Toa of G1 and G2 were.
They will have families, friends, and lives outside of their Toa existence because they were not always Toa.

They seemed to manage with their elemental abilities despite being the same average size as the rest of the humans.

Yes, there are plenty of examples where characters are powerful without appearing physically stronger. No one is denying that these physical traits can work in alternative media, but there are just as many examples of strong powerful characters that are physically stronger.

Would you say that a spartan from Halo is not human simply because he's 7 feet tall and has triple the strength and endurance of a regular marine?

And would you say that simply because a marine is inferior to a spartan that they are not relevant or important? Because spoiler alert, the spartans died out but humanity did not.

[TeslaEffect]

I think the need to make our fictional race of beings adhere to a certain statute of physical traits simply to make our fantasy characters in a fantasy world more "believable" is a bit silly if you ask me.

NO I want them to be believable in a sense that their height does not indicate someones power level. If you really want to steroid effect for some examples, sure go ahead, but there should also be the size matters not part of this as well....where a very skilled, but less powerful Matoran can beat a more powerful, but less skilled Toa...because the Matoran has years and years of knowledge and training that for example the Toa might not have had since he didnt focus on it before he found out about his powers....I just dont really care about the height difference like the ones many propoesed with their reasons, if it doesnt matter, the Toa and Matoran should be the same sizes, or at least incorporate the three height thing and two body shapes I mentioned initially for all of them and then mix and match for characters.

Would you say that a spartan from Halo is not human simply because he's 7 feet tall and has triple the strength and endurance of a regular marine?

They are effectively not human,they are genetically modified to the point they can be a new branch of the human taxonomy (in the natural sense it took Humans to biologically advance over the corse of 10 000-100 000 years...in this case much much faster due to artificial means).

And would you say that simply because a marine is inferior to a spartan that they are not relevant or important? Because spoiler alert, the spartans died out but humanity did not.

Thats what people here that voted for matoran being shorter invision and some of you TTV members also stated. Which is more sillier than what I propose for it to be believable for the Matoran to be just as capable of fighting back as the Toa.

It seems, again that people have various outlooks with why they answered a or b on the poles...which dont help at all since again we dont have a clear indication on why it should be a or b and it to make sense from a story, set, creator, and consumer perspective.

Those 4 aspects need to be taken into consideration before we actually decide on what to do next, because some things will not work in system form no matter if its new or nostalgic.

[DarkHenrik]

i still think that it would be better if we did the body printing idea i just talked about (though i could have gone into futher details)

basicly the Toa would have the super hero physique on their printing, indicating that they are physically strong, while the Matorans would have a more normal build in their printing, to show that they are not as strong as the Toa, but still be at the same size (minus Onua).

in addition, i also think that the Toa should be the only ones of the good guys to have armor, were as the Matorans would have tribal clothing that was colored after their elemental tribes (the color could vary from Matoran to Matoran, like the fire Matoran's colors could be ither red, yellow or orange)

just to go by a Medieval look, this is kind of what i mean.

Toa:

Matoran:

(No joke, it was not easy to find a medival farmer image that did not look goofy and laughable, this one being the least stupid looking one)

[ReeseEH]

The main problem is that because they are both mechanical it would be hard to tell the difference. Both have masks, both have armor-esque/mechanical body prints, etc. I guess to some extent the cloth could help differentiate, but... some of the toa also have capes and stuff.

[DarkHenrik]

The main problem is that because they are both mechanical it would be hard to tell the difference. Both have masks, both have armor-esque/mechanical body prints, etc. I guess to some extent the cloth could help differentiate, but... some of the toa also have capes and stuff.

the way i see it working is that the Masks, the weapons, the armor and the symbols and runes on the Toa is whats going to get them to look different, while for the Matorans, their simple clothing, common mask design and lack of symbols and runes is what would tell people that they are not the Heroes.

I think people need to think about what the matorans would look like before they say that the Matorans and the Toa would look identical and thus be hard to tell which is which, because some here seems to be under the logic that the Matorans and the Toa would use a similar body printing to each others.

[Pohatuisawesome]

Did my picture get deleted?

[prentice1215]

I think the need to make our fictional race of beings adhere to a certain statute of physical traits simply to make our fantasy characters in a fantasy world more "believable" is a bit silly if you ask me.

'believability' of their anatomy is really irrelevant to their role in the story.

importance comes from their experiences as characters...

Thank you!

the body printing idea

super hero physique on their printing

At the end of the day, for an average consumer that doesn't know anything about BIONICLE lore, it will be easier to tell which character is the hero and the villager by the size.

While story and everything is really interesting and fun to talk about, the main idea of this exercise is to make a system based BIONICLE theme successful, right, @IllustriousVar? The lore can end up being really cool and interesting, but the toys will have to appeal to the consumer long before the lore will need to, since the sets are the gateway into that world. For this aspect, things should be as simple as possible, and that's why the Matoran should be smaller than the Toa. As I stated above:

That size helps show the buyer of the toy which character can do what.

[ZceeNook]

Guys...

We could do as the G1 did...

And upgrade the Matoran in year 2.

To Toa size?

As in awaken the Matoran that is hinted at to be sleeping in year 1 to upgrade them into Semi Toa.

[Drfredrick]

Would you say that a spartan from Halo is not human simply because he's 7 feet tall and has triple the strength and endurance of a regular marine?

May I interject with a question?

If you were making a Lego Halo theme, would you give the Marines Mini-Legs to show that they are shorter than the Spartans?

The problem isn't the Toa being bigger in story, the problem is the visual in set form.

[TeslaEffect]

Guys...

We could do as the G1 did...

You mean get cancelled, cause thats how you get cancelled.

If you were making a Lego Halo theme, would you give the Marines Mini-Legs to show that they are shorter than the Spartans?

The problem isn't the Toa being bigger in story, the problem is the visual in set form.

Nah they are humans, so matter what size difference, they would always be the same size...but when Bionicle wants to do it, ooooh nooo we have to be true to the nostalgic roots and not make them the same size, no matter if it is system and that characters are 10 times smaller than they would be in constraction form.

[Eljay]

You mean get cancelled, cause thats how you get cancelled.

This boggles my mind because Gen 1 ran for 10 years. 10 years. Matoran were always smaller than Toa during every year they were a part of a wave. BIONICLE Gen 1 did not get cancelled because Matoran got bigger, that is stupid.

A lot of people want to needlessly complicate the visuals on these characters, when it is far easier to just show it.

And for the record, yes, Matoran are generally weak and useless. That's why Toa exist.

[ZceeNook]

Well...
I meant not like that but It would make sense that we evolved the matorans sligtly...

Like in year 3 of G1

[TeslaEffect]

A lot of people want to needlessly complicate the visuals on these characters, when it is far easier to just show it.

More like all of this Toa being Matoran just adds even more complications.

And for the record, yes, Matoran are generally weak and useless. That's why Toa exist.

Then whats the point of htem existing if they cant even defend themselves without them. They would be genocided by now if they are weak and useless.

[DarkHenrik]

it will be easier to tell which character is the hero and the villager by the size.

no matter how many times i hear it, it still sound like a dum argument. and by the way, if the first year start with the Matorans frozen in place and the Toa are just going to fight the Rahkshi, then people will know who is the hero and who is the villager when the matorans show up in the next years story when the matorans are free.

Not to meantion how no one here has talked about how the Toa and Matorans would interact at all, and i would like to bring up that if the Toa are larger than the Matorans, then the Toa would have a hard time getting back in to their families homes (Onua would have it the worse given how he is even larger than the other Toa, so he would probably not even be able to fit into the door even). Also, the problem with having the Toa's main showing that they are stronger being that they are taller than their own species, when the Matorans are shown in set, people might not first belive that the Toa and the Matorans are from the same species. Infact i think they would also wonder why the Toa are taller than the Matorans if they learned that they are the same species.

---

Then whats the point of htem existing if they cant even defend themselves without them. They would be genocided by now if they are weak and useless.

i think Non Bionicle fans would agree with this, and ask why the Matorans should be there if they are weak and useless, instead of just having the Toa be on the island to fight against the forces of evil by themself.

[Drfredrick]

This boggles my mind because Gen 1 ran for 10 years. 10 years. Matoran were always smaller than Toa during every year they were a part of a wave. BIONICLE Gen 1 did not get cancelled because Matoran got bigger, that is stupid.

I'm not really sure I understand what either of you are saying.

G1 Matoran were basically useless compared to the Toa in the first year, (so much so that all the Matoran on the island would be unlikely to match a single Toa), they get progressively stronger as the story went on, until eventually we got Av-Matoran, who were extremely useful in battle, and a tough Agori/Bone-Hunter could go toe-to-toe with a full-fledged Glatorian.

I don't think G1 sets a clear president either way.

[Eljay]

More like all of this Toa being Matoran just adds even more complications.

It really doesn't, and I doubt you'd be able to prove that to me. You may forget that Matoran -> Toa -> Turaga is how they handled it in Gen 1. That was the chain. So even than, Toa were Matoran. Were you confused?

Then whats the point of htem existing if they cant even defend themselves without them. They would be genocided by now if they are weak and useless.

This is really a story detail, which I'm not sure has been covered yet. It's worth noting that when I stated that, I was talking about Gen 1, not this project. In Gen 1, yes, Matoran were incredibly weak and needed guardians. They had to have roughly 11 of them on Metru Nui, as well as other places.

The whole point of a Matoran is to be an everyman compared to a Toa. You guys put a lot more stake in Matoran than they really deserve.

I'm not really sure I understand what either of you are saying.

G1 Matoran were basically useless compared to the Toa in the first year, (so much so that all the Matoran on the island would be unlikely to match a single Toa), they get progressively stronger as the story went on, until eventually we got Av-Matoran, who were extremely useful in battle, and a tough Agori/Bone-Hunter could go toe-to-toe with a full-fledged Glatorian.

I don't think G1 sets a clear president either way.

My point was that he claimed doing things like how Gen 1 did it would get any future venture cancelled, which can't be true if Gen 1 ran for a decade opposed to a standard themes 3 years, or a failed themes 1 or 2.

Also, Matoran never got stronger throughout Gen 1. They were either the same strength as they always have been or weaker.

2001: Weakened.
2002: Weakened.
2003: Standard.
2004: Standard.
2005: N/A
2006: Weakened.
2007: Standard.
2008: Slightly stronger, nowhere near a Toa by any stretch of the imagination.
2009: N/A, these are not Matoran, these are Agori. Also, most Agori have to fight a Glatorian on a steed or in a vehicle.

All in all, Matoran have always been weak. And in a general sense, yes, they are mostly defenseless. Can Matoran be useful? I'll partially retract a statement of mine and say that sure, some can be. But as a general rule, Toa -----> Matoran always.

(And a great way to show that in a story is the have them shorter than a Toa).

[prentice1215]

frozen in place

As discussed on the podcast, this story idea is probably being thrown out the window.

Toa would have a hard time getting back in to their families home to their new bodies and roles in the tribe.

This would help the characters grow, as they struggle to get accustomed

were basically useless compared to the Toa in the first year

Uhh, no they weren't. Ta Koro guard? Chronicler's Company? MNOG in general?