Should the Toa and Matoran be the same height? [POLL]

[Stuubh]

I could not agree with you more.

[TeslaEffect]

@IllustriousVar

This statement is just pure conjecture and hyperbole. There is no logical basis for this claim at all.

You might as well say LEGO lines get canceled because there’s not enough pink.

You need to brush on your Archer a lot more since the obvious reference missed your head and all of you who commented on that took it seriously…sigh.

@IllustriousVar

Yes, if we were planning on making sets that feature both marines and spartans I would make the spartans taller. However, my method would be to extend the legs of the spartans via foot pieces ala Harley Quinn instead of shortening the marines. In this instance its because these characters are human and have actual hieghts parameters that should be retained.

Or just use the taller minifigure design introduced with Toy Story…cause peopel seem to ignore that and its a far more viable option than non movable legs. Did nobody even read the initial comment I made here about minifigure variety? Specifically TTV.

@IllustriousVar

You seem to be ignoring the fact that most of our toa were warriors before they became toa. There are matoran armies in this world. Mangai is a military region that fights off hordes of rahi.

You seem to forget that one of your TTV members, Eljay, has specifically stated that Matoran are weak and useless. If they have an army as you stated, they are not weak or useless.

They are not on the same level when it comes to elemental powers, but they are not weak and useless (they have proven to have helped numerous times, even giving knowledge should be considered part of the useful part)…thats what Eljay forgot to add in order for his statement to make sense…

[IllustriousVar]

@TeslaEffect

Or just use the taller minifigure design introduced with Toy Story…cause peopel seem to ignore that and its a far more viable option than non movable legs. Did nobody even read the initial comment I made here about minifigure variety? Specifically TTV.

It’s not like we haven’t thought of that ourselves. In my opinion the proportions are exaggerated to the point of cartoonish-ness, so I’m not really in favor of it. But I’m also not completely against it either.

@TeslaEffect

You seem to forget that one of your TTV members, Eljay, has specifically stated that Matoran are weak and useless. If they have an army as you stated, they are not weak or useless.

Yes, and Kahi wants them all to be the same size. Surprisingly enough, we have different opinions on this!

However, Eljay is speaking in terms of Matoran and their use in the story historically in G1 and G2 to point how this has been an established precedent for Bionicle, therefore the complaints about their characters being given weakness is a little odd. It’s not so much about how they will be treated story-wise in G3.

[JonBlueFire]

I’m going to start off with this:

1. If TTV’s G3 was constraction, I’d be 100% fine with making the matoran shorter than the toa.

2. If the shorter legs had articulation, I’d be 100% fine with making the matoran shorter than the toa.

3. If the Matoran were not 90% of the island’s population, I’d be 100% fine with making the matoran shorter than the toa.

The problem is, they’re not.

I would say most of us want a substantial a difference between the heroes and the villagers; but the issue is that this would be a toy.
Everyone knows Lego’s main purpose is to sell toys, not stories. You guys even admitted it on the podcast that if this actually existed, you’d prefer articulation over story relevance. True, this will never actually happen, but the whole purpose of this project, you guys said was to experience the process of how Lego makes a theme. If that means sacrificing an important feature/significance/appearance for more articulation and action features, then, since Lego sells toys, they would go the action feature route.

As much as I argue for ■■■■■■■■■■■ mini-figs, I do think different heights would make it easier for kids to recognize heroes. However, I also recognize the fact that Lego is a toy company and would have a greater monetary reason for making them the same height.

---

Okay, now that that’s out of the way…

Does anyone else find this pretty have to decipher, ignoring nostalgia bias? What I mean is, we have no real idea how many bad guys there are (Lego themes usually has a few named ones and then a bunch of swarm guys), how tall other beings (if they exist) will be, what the heck the finalizedtoa weapons even look like, the difference between toa weapons and matoran weapons (which could also be a differentiating factor between toa and matoran), etc.

Anyone else feeling this way?

[TeslaEffect]

@IllustriousVar

Yes, and Kahi wants them all to be the same size. Surprisingly enough, we have different opinions on this!

However, Eljay is speaking in terms of Matoran and their use in the story historically in G1 and G2 not so much how they will be treated story-wise in G3.

So the exampling doesnt really apply to G3…hope so cause story-wise that was one of the larger issues when it came to the bipolar representation of the Matoran (granted you could say a lot of them were in civilian roles, but when they did go Millitary they were able to go off against something threatening them and depending on the threat ether one or a larger group can take down)…If he said this, I would be okey, but he just stated the bare bones generalization of the thing which at its surface is not true when you go into the full detail of everything.

@JonBlueFire

I’m going to start off with this:

If TTV’s G3 was constraction, I’d be 100% fine with making the matoran shorter than the toa.
If the shorter legs had articulation, I’d be 100% fine with making the matoran shorter than the toa.
If the Matoran were not 90% of the island’s population, I’d be 100% fine with making the matoran shorter than the toa.

Despite my very opposing oppinions, I would be okey with this, but possibly only if these situations happened.

@21sselliW

Let me guess: you couldn’t be bothered to actually read what I said, just saw “Matoran are like Indians” and assumed that I’m saying Indians are weak, which is the exact opposite of my point.

You forgot a lot of examples that proved against your claims, specially when it came to Native Americans and the use of guns and what not…but lets not use real life analogies like those specially since it revolves around a touchy subject that America has quite sained in the past.

@JonBlueFire

would say most of us want a substantial a difference between the heroes and the villagers; but the issue is that this would be a toy. Everyone knows Lego’s main purpose is to sell toys, not stories. You guys even admitted it on the podcast that if this actually existed, you’d prefer articulation over story relevance. True, this will never actually happen, but the whole purpose of this project, you guys said was to experience the process of how Lego makes a theme. If that means sacrificing an important feature/significance/appearance for more articulation and action features, then, since Lego sells toys, they would go the action feature route.

As much as I argue for ■■■■■■■■■■■ mini-figs, I do think different heights would make it easier for kids to recognize heroes. However, I also recognize the fact that Lego is a toy company and would have a greater monetary reason for making them the same height.

^^^^YES, YES, all of this

Thank you.

[Willess12]

Let me guess: you couldn’t be bothered to actually read what I said, just saw “Matoran are like Indians” and assumed that I’m saying Indians are weak, which is the exact opposite of my point.

~W12~

[prentice1215]

I actually kind of think this discussion is happening too early. Jon said on the podcast that he’s surprised the conversation hasn’t happened yet, but I think it should have held off. I’ve seen some interesting points made in this topic. What are the characters like, what the story will be, and more seems up in the air at this point. Some people have been arguing their cases completely based on story without taking the toy part of it into context, some have done the opposite, and other have been thinking about both.

IMO, even though I stand by my reasonings for the shorter Matoran, there isn’t enough concrete story or set information to be able to argue about sizes yet. In two weeks they could bring up something story related and that throws the same-size idea out the window and this entire topic becomes redundant. It would have been better if they had waited.

[DarkHenrik]

@IllustriousVar

Yes, but it’s not so much that I want to reject the importance of the lore, because I think you can incorporate elements of the lore within the sets too and I don’t think making the legs shorter takes away from that, rather I feel it enhances it because it gives a clear understanding of the difference between these two characters without the need to dive further into the story to find out.

Tahu has powers, Jaller does not.This level of clarity is not as effective if we reduce this difference to purely the printing, in my opinion.

i still find this to be a flawed logic, because the thing is, if there was a set with Tahu and Jaller in it people most likely won’t just jump to the first conclusion that Jaller is a villager and Tahu is a magicaly enhanced member of Jaller’s people, instead because of the “Hobbit” legs, people might instead think that Jaller is a kid sidekick to Tahu:

because again, we kind of have to try and think what a non bionicle fan might think, and i don’t think the first thing they will jump to when they see a small Matoran and a tall Toa will be the knowledge we have of the franchise. Ither they will think that the Matorans are kids, or they will think they are some dwarf race, not related to the Toa.

[prentice1215]

@DarkHenrik

Jaller is a kid sidekick to Tahu

But isn’t that kind of what Matoran are to begin with? They’re the little side kick characters the Toa have to save?

[JonBlueFire]

I 100% agree!
Everything happens too fast, and too many ideas/concepts go unnoticed.
But it’s a little late to change that, at this point.

[Eljay]

@TeslaEffect

You seem to forget that one of your TTV members, Eljay, has specifically stated that Matoran are weak and useless. If they have an army as you stated, they are not weak or useless.

How does that defeat his point? How does saying “Well, look what Eljay said!” negate anything he has said? News flash: We aren’t a hive mind. Additionally, I don’t believe I said the Matoran from this project are weak and useless, but the Matoran from G1 are.

@TeslaEffect

They are not on the same level when it comes to elemental powers, but they are not weak and useless (they have proven to have helped numerous times, even giving knowledge should be considered part of the useful part)…thats what Eljay forgot to add in order for his statement to make sense…

I’ll repeat myself because you either are taking my words out of context out of ignorance or on purpose, not sure which.

Matoran, as a general rule, are weak and useless. There are exceptions, but generally they need Toa to protect them because they are not strong.

Yes, there are exceptions. And yes, I am talking about G1 Matoran. Obviously we’ve seen them. However they are either few and far between or have to be in groups to do anything worthwhile. The Chronicler’s Company almost got overwhelmed until armies of Matoran came to assist.

Additionally:

@TeslaEffect

Then why repeat that dumb idea if it was just as problematic as then.

Still waiting for you to answer me on this one.

[TeslaEffect]

Even though Robin was a kid, they someone made him aave longer legs…I know they made him be older, but was it due to the need for the toy aspect they changed the story part…or other way around ( I would believe its the first thing).

@Eljay

Still waiting for you to answer me on this one.

Read the other comments and extrapulate something for yourself. I moved on to other discussions regarding this thread.

@Eljay

Matoran, as a general rule, are weak and useless. There are exceptions, but generally they need Toa to protect them because they are not strong.

Dont like your viewpoint regarding that, since you didnt go in depth with the whole Matoran capabilities situation…and you want me to explain myself about somethign I said…kek no.

[IllustriousVar]

@DarkHenrik

i still find this to be a flawed logic, because the thing is, if there was a set with Tahu and Jaller in it people most likely won’t just jump to the first conclusion that Jaller is a villager and Tahu is a magicaly enhanced member of Jaller’s people, instead because of the “Hobbit” legs, people might instead think that Jaller is a kid sidekick to Tahu:

I mean, yeah? If you broke down the bare bones basics of what Jallers relationship to Tahu would be in a playset, is that not what Jaller is?

@JonBlueFire

Everyone knows Lego’s main purpose is to sell toys, not stories. You guys even admitted it on the podcast that if this actually existed, you’d prefer articulation over story relevance.

Sure, I’d understand where you were coming from if we were trying to make a new piece, but LEGO has had plenty of sets with short legs, even recently. Short legs do not seem to be a detriment to selling toys, otherwise Lego would have done something else, no?

[TeslaEffect]

@IllustriousVar

Sure, I’d understand where you were coming from if we were trying to make a new piece, but LEGO has had plenty of sets with short legs, even recently. Short legs do not seem to be a detriment to selling toys, otherwise Lego would have done something else, no?

What theme (that wasnt Hobbit or Star Wars, cause those are not Lego original IPs) had a large amount short minifigures with non moveable legs (speciffically the citizens) that were made by Lego (not counting monster characters cause those are an entirely different thing)? Im curious which one had it and was succesful with it.

[prentice1215]

@Eljay

Matoran, as a general rule, are weak and useless. There are exceptions, but generally they need Toa to protect them because they are not strong.

@TeslaEffect

Dont like your viewpoint regarding that, since you didnt go in depth with the whole Matoran capabilities situation

Uh, yes he did.

@Eljay

The Chronicler’s Company almost got overwhelmed until armies of Matoran came to assist.

Clear example of Matoran doing stuff that showed how capable they are, but still needing help.

[JonBlueFire]

@IllustriousVar

Sure, I’d understand where you were coming from if we were trying to make a new piece, but LEGO has had plenty of sets with short legs, even recently. Short legs do not seem to be a detriment to selling toys, otherwise Lego would have done something else, no?

I’m assuming you’re talking about characters from licensed themes, then. Because as far as I can remember, we have never gotten a short-legged minifigure that either, A. wasn’t a main character, or B. wasn’t a kid. (Or C. wasn’t a dwarf or other naturally small person)

@TeslaEffect

What theme (that wasnt Hobbit or Star Wars, cause those are not Lego original IPs) had a large amount short minifigures with non moveable legs (speciffically the citizens) that were made by Lego (not counting monster characters cause those are an entirely different thing)? Im curious which one had it and was succesful with it.

My thoughts, exactly.

[Stuubh]

But is articulation really more important than the lore behind a theme whose main purpose is the story? In the last podcast the point was made that there are not going to be actual sets, so in this G3, the story is more important than the playability.

[Eljay]

@TeslaEffect

Dont like your viewpoint regarding that, since you didnt go in depth with the whole Matoran capabilities situation…and you want me to explain myself about somethign I said…kek no.

So, this isn’t how conversations and discussions work. “You didn’t go in depth about something (which isn’t true) so I won’t explain my claim.” You either do and you’re right or you don’t and simply admit you’re wrong. Your call.

You want in depth? Sure, ask me whatever you want to know. But just know that by avoiding my question and not explaining your viewpoint, you concede said point. That’s on you.

[prentice1215]

But the idea is to design it like they were actually LEGO designers that are wanting to sell a product.

[TeslaEffect]

@Stuubh

But is articulation really more important than the lore behind a theme whose main purpose is the story?

Cause this is a company that makes primarily toys with Story attached to it…not Stories with toys attached to it. [quote=“Stuubh, post:181, topic:35702”]
In the last podcast the point was made that there are not going to be actual sets, so in this G3, the story is more important than the playability.
[/quote]

Oh so we are making situations that would most likely not happen in real life…that seems like a waste of time.

@Stuubh

Yes, but in this particular situation, the story is a very important part of the toys being sold.

Or this is what you want it to be…