Should the Toa's Gender Be Changed? (More female team members?) [Worldbuilding] [Pitch]

I think they would be willing to change their opinions if you provided a compelling argument. Basically what you’re saying boils down to “I don’t like it” and “respect gen 1”.

They have changed their minds on several things due to community feedback. Just recently they spent around an hour arguing over Pohatu’s element only to have a fan convince them to keep it as stone.

4 Likes

There has been hours of debate and compelling arguments to be had, I’ve been willing to concede on points and have done so, others have conceded on points to me, there are compelling arguments being made.

What I’m saying is there’s no reason for it and plenty of reasons against it. Don’t try to invalidate the argument by saying I just don’t like change.
I’ve advocated for some changes, I’m not against change on principle.

Which is something I’m actually against, because it means the complete rewrite of earth as an element to be plants and topsoil, which is confusing for the black toa to control, surely it would make more sense visually for pohatu to control plants?

If the ninjago movie made Cole a girl and changed the characters personalities and elements, would the fans just not like change? It’s a different continuity, they can change whatever they want right?
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it, which isn’t me saying that there isn’t anything that should change, a lot of the problems of g1 were fixed in g2, and g2 had problems that g1 didn’t, and somewhere in there is a good g3 rule set, but a lot of the changes being made either solve a problem that doesn’t exist, such as the gender ratio, or solves a problem that does exist poorly, such as the changes to the elements.

2 Likes

Yes. We are telling you that.

It’s not a community project. It’s our project that we are allowing you to make contributions to.

I mean this is an opinion that we have combated for over a week now. If it was really as meaningless as you say it wouldn’t have been such a hot topic to begin with.

The polls are to gauge community opinions. It is not a vote. Its a poll. It was never stated that we would choose the highest rated option, and especially with no compromises.

Yes. Things were not set in stone when I said that.
That has since changed.

A lot of you just don’t seem to understand that this is a podcast project, and you have to actually listen to podcast if you want to participate in this discussion.

Every Satuday new things are set in stone. Female Lewa is now set in stone. No one here made an argument that convinced us not to do it.

It should be obvious that Onua’s appearance would be adjusted to accommodate this change, I really don’t understand this statement.

No it wouldn’t? Because they’re two different people? Unless you’re placing value on characters only for gender alone then all it does is add, not subtract.

1 Like

I want to reiterate this as much as I can. This is TTV’s G3. We listen to all of your feedback, we are inspired by your artwork and concepts and the fans have made a definite impact on what we would do with this series. This is a collaborative effort, to be sure.

But this is not a community project in the sense that what is “canon” is decided by the community. What is canon is decided by us; always has been, always will be. We gage opinions and listen to pitches, but we aren’t completely beholden to them or “popular opinion”. From what I’ve seen so far, that would be a catastrophic mistake.

2 Likes

You may have intended for this to be your project, but you have framed it as a community project.
You need to make it absolutely clear that you’re doing what you want and not what the community wants.

3 Likes

I have absolutely. No. fathomable idea how you could say this has been framed as
anything other than our project.

This rules of this sub category are very clear as to what this is.

The title is literally “TTV’s G3 Project”. How else could we spell this out for you? You need to read the rules to participate, this his how it’s always been on this board.

4 Likes

Then you’re clearly incapable of understanding just how ridiculous your request is, considering the information I posed in the paragraph you quoted. It’s unreasonable to ask anyone to spend HOURS sitting and just listening to assorted conversations that, like I said, only grant tidbits of informations I’d otherwise miss which may marr my comprehension of what you’re actually doing.

And going back to the newly-added timestamp regarding a re-imagining of what the Toa are mean to be in G3–a timestamp which wasn’t included in the description when I first went to check out the podcast–I don’t exactly see how that has any impact whatsoever on the argument. You’re still taking these characters from G1 and translating them into a new storyline. That these new Toa are effectively avatars of past Toa doesn’t mean anything for the nature of reboots and the obligations one faces by making one.

Something being debated does not equal that thing having importance. I’d provide an example, but I can’t think of any that aren’t political/religious in nature, so I won’t open that can of worms.

If you’re not going to do anything with the polls, why bother with them?

Well, it’s come off very much as a community project. Not once have I seen anything officially stating that this is only TTV’s project, and that the community can only hope to maybe influence you on decisions regarding absolutely anything.

The title implies that the end result is decided by TTV. It does not imply that every single call is 100% your decision and that the community has very little influence, as you say is the case.

This entire category is centered around the podcast. If you are not willing to listen to the podcast, then you have no place discussing here. It’s really a simple concept that I don’t understand whats so hard to grasp.

They are being discussed on the podcast, that is their purpose. If you aren’t going to watch the podcast then its no surprise that you don’t seem to understand what they’re for. [quote=“SirKeksalot, post:207, topic:34741”]
Well, it’s come off very much as a community project. Not once have I seen anything officially stating that this is only TTV’s project, and that the community can only hope to maybe influence you on decisions regarding absolutely anything.
[/quote]

Dude. I cant even.

You’re telling me that a title that says “TTV’s Project” somehow implies that it is not actually our project? Are you sure you really want to stick with that argument?

2 Likes

The thing that’s so hard to grasp is that this is the first and only time that my means of getting my information has come up in this project. Ergo, it is of no consequence that I only skim the podcast for relevant information. I get what you’re saying, but what I don’t get is how this, the first time this has come up (which doesn’t actually affect my argument, mind you), somehow invalidates me from talking about a fan project wherein the final calls and relevant information are almost entirely detailed outside of the podcast anyway.

That’s cool and all, but that doesn’t change the fact that the polls clearly have no influence whatsoever on your decisions. Whether or not you’re discussing them is of no consequence at all; all that matters is what you decide upon.

That’s not my argument. The title only implies that you own the project and that you choose which community voices get heard. It doesn’t imply that the community has only the slightest influence.

I would think that a topic listing what is official would imply that. Who decides that? The logical conclusion would be us.

But if you’re incapable of basic logical reasoning, don’t worry! Because it actually says:

And also in the Rules:

1 Like

I said you made it look like a community project. I didn’t say that made sense with the polls.

The topic never states outright that TTV is the only party that gets to have a significant amount of influence. In owning the project, it’s necessary that you’d be the ones to make the final call; but nowhere is it stated that those calls are not based on community input in a noteworthy capacity.

The first rule doesn’t have any impact on the nature of how the pitch is developed. The second and third are just common sense.

so just to put it simply here so there is a clear enough idea on what the community’s role in the TTV project is, its then basicly something like this,

basicly, the cast “walk” around the message boards, look at the ideas and stuff people present that fit their vision, and then say “i like this ones, i will consider them”

10 Likes

How can you even type this out and not realize how ridiculous of a statement that is?

The title says we are the owners of the project. The project is ours.

That is as outright as you can get. You cannot claim ownership over something that is not yours. You do not get to dictate what and how the possessions of someone else is treated. You do not get to set the rules to a rulebook that does not belong to you. Nowhere is it mentioned that you will have any kind of say in what we decide to do with our project.

Yeah, this is pretty much spot on what this category is for. Oomatu, for instance, has presented several concepts that we had not previously thought of or considered that we now want to incorporate just because the concept is so strong. You can sway the direction of where we go, but ultimately we will be deciding what goes in our project.

3 Likes

I’m clearly in the wrong here.
Faulty memory and the general tone of the discussion topics has obviously given me the wrong idea, and I would like to apologize profusely for the misunderstanding on my part.
I feel like a right fool to be honest, I only hope this hasn’t poisoned any water so to speak, regardless I’m glad to have things set straight.

6 Likes

Maybe I’m not making my thought process clear enough. You own the project. You therefore get the power to make the final calls regardless of what happens. That has no correlation to how much the community affects those final calls except in that they can’t make them (which is the only way to do it because, let’s face it, no fandom should have that power). Because of how the topics have been handled on this forum, I got the impression that you wanted more community input and would largely make the decisions based on that input. Thus, it would be a community project, but you’d still own it. That’s the vibe I got.

I’m not saying that people haven’t been making compelling arguments, I’m saying that specifically your argument is not compelling or deep.

Actually there are many reasons for a more diverse cast and few against it. The primary one for it being that having some of the Toa being female will help make the brand more inclusive. So far, Bionicle has pretty much exclusively been designed for boys, you need to only look to the gender ratio in TTV for proof of that. A more inclusive brand will mean more people interested in Bionicle, which is a good thing. Additionally, more female Toa gets rid of the “token girl” syndrome we’ve suffered from for 10+ years. We want the brand to progress and avoid the tropes it has previously used.

1 Like

Diversity of personality, yes.

I bring up my point, females can relate to male characters like males can relate to female characters, changing the gender ratio doesn’t make bionicle any less a ‘boys toy’.

It’s designed for kids who like action themes, which is predominantly male, like how friends and elves are designed for kids who like interpersonal conflicts, which is predominantly female, both of these examples have both action and interpersonal conflicts, however the focus is different, the gender ratios of these lines reflect the target audience, and I see nothing wrong with that.

Girls will not suddenly gain interest in the tribal robots fighting to the death because there’s an extra chick, I’m sorry, that’s not how interests work.

I would never call any of the female toa token girls, they all had distinct interesting personalities like their brothers and were valued members of their respective teams, to an outsider looking at the surface level of ratios it could look like they were token characters, but they weren’t, at least to me.

More females less males, progress
You see I don’t find the replacement of characters because they’re the wrong gender to be particularly progressive.

Right, so we’ll make gali male and then there’s no token female.

5 Likes

If males have no trouble relating to female characters and vice versa then there would be no problem with a more balanced cast, right?

I think assuming that “girls like this type of toy” and “boys like this type of toy” is dangerous and harmful. You’re correct in saying the audience of friends and elves is mainly female, but that is mainly due to society reinforcing gender roles. Same goes for Bionicle and it’s audience. It can’t hurt to try and stop this from happening.

If we add more female characters to Bionicle, then girls will be more likely to give it a go because it doesn’t seem like a “boys only club”. Perhaps the main audience will still be male, but it’s good to have more diversity in our fandom and the casual consumer base.

Again, it’s not a good idea to lump a whole group together and say “you won’t like this”. Maybe not every girl will like Bionicle, but some doubtless will enjoy it. And we can help make the brand feel more welcoming to those girls by adding more female Toa.

But let’s say no girls are interested in Bionicle, I’d still argue that it’s a good idea to have more female Toa, especially in the main team. It shows boys that girls can kick butt just as much as they can. Bionicle already did this to an extent (great characters like Helryx, Gali, Lariska etc.), but it’s a good idea to take it even further.

No one’s saying anything about “the wrong gender”. There is no strictly correct gender for a character.

You seem to miss the point. Gali is a good start, but more female characters are a good idea. If we remove her we would make things worse. We would be taking a step backwards.

And thus there’s no reason to change the ratio, right?

I’m not assuming anything, I’m going by facts and figures, accepting reality isn’t dangerous or harmful.

So you’re going to ignore brain differences then? The reason men and women generally have different interests.

I’m sorry, that’s not how this works, the gender ratio of the characters is not why most girls are not interested in bionicle.

I’m not lumping all girls together, I specifically said the preferences were predominantly gendered, not wholly gendered, of course there are exceptions to the rule, human psychology is a complex thing, there are already girls who like bionicle, they’re on this site, they’re part of ttv, those are the girls who are the exception to the rule, the ones who like action themes,
The girls who aren’t interested in the line are not suddenly going to be interested because of another female character, it’s not the gender of the characters that they’re not interested in.

One female toa gets this point across just as well as 5, the point is girls are capable of fighting.

How far do we have to go for you to be satisfied? I’m curious.

You’re arguing for more females(and subsequently less males), therefore to this argument male is the wrong gender for a certain percentage of characters to have.

Actually I was just being satirical.

Hypothetical question: what if we swapped the genders of the whole team?

2 Likes

I do not wish to resurrect what I believe is a settled quarrel, but I do wish to state this, nonetheless.

@IllustriousVar You have said that this is your project, the TTV’s project, which is ultimately decided by you all, in the end, with inspiration taken from the fans.

The only instances you were swayed was either by actual fact, or the talent of great artists.

Actual fact occurred when a community member reminded you all that ‘Pohatu’ meant ‘Stone’ in Maori; therefore, as you’ve stated, changing the original six elements while keeping the same characters was a pointless discussion.

Visual instances are everywhere on this topic, and it would make sense that you would follow it closely, as @Jon stated that you all are visual people.
But why, I may ask, do you only discuss the good artists and writers? There have been a number of interesting concepts and ideas that were put out there in Brickonicle’s earliest stages, that were, ultimately, completely ignored.
A good example would be @Matanui606 's ideas topic that was criticized by @Eljay recently; it failed to produce any discussion, however, as those were outdated ideas, that did not agree with the present canon.
But at least Eljay, one of the original TTV cast and a respected BIonicle fan, took the time to convey his thoughts on other’s concepts, right?
Wrong.
If you guys are going to take ideas from the community, then make sure you read through every post, every topic, every single idea relating to it, no matter the skill level of the poster, because if you don’t, then you are just failing to live up to the task you put on the community:

An example would be when @Mesonak stated that he anticipated actual art of the island. Well, we’ve already had at least a couple of topics physically illustrating the island, one of them being my one. Now, they might not be as good as @Oomatu’s creations, but they should at least be respected in the fact that they exist.

Another point I wish to convey in this message is that your reasoning for the whole of this hypothetical G3 is to take on the toil of the Lego group when they re-made Bionicle G2.
Well, this is definitely not the way to go about it.
Lego has never, at least to my knowledge, issued a theme where they originally took the feedback from fans. Bionicle G2 was dumbed down to market more towards younger kids, the only point of “feedback,” but from G1’s sales, not the fans.
If you truly wish to go through the process of creating a theme, then create it yourself.
Lego employees no nothing of how the community will react to their ideas, or how the line will do in terms of sales, until the sets either get leaked, or are officially released by the company.
The only possible feedback they receive is when they select children to play with the sets and test them out. But this is from a toy standpoint, not a story one.
Having information from poles conducted on a largely Bionicle based fanbase (most likely 2001-2003 fans) will, of course, skew the data in favor of the original line. With the cast (mostly) ignoring the poles in their final decisions, as it is your remake after all, one may come to the conclusion that having poles are a waste of time; essentially they say the G1 worked, so do it again. Since you are the end-all be-all, it really makes no sense to put up such a survey without it actually being accurate.

Here’s my suggestion on how Brickonicle should have been done:
Just do it, yourselves.

Seriously. All the poles to is anger and divide people into viewing their own ideas as being superior (or inferior) and it doesn’t even matter cause you have the final say. Which doesn’t matter either, as this won’t actually be a story set in motion, but rather ideas floating in the air.
If you had just debated this amongst the cast, collecting the story and set ideas together, in secret, the anger, joy, and mutual feelings towards the hypothetical G3 would never have been aroused.
The remade theme should have been presented with an animation done by @Xeros610 with music by @Cazapar (as both are now TTV employees) as a surprise idea. Additional story arcs and character development would have been discussed on the podcast, with critiques being made by the audience after the “theme” was out (as Lego goes through this feedback regularly with their themes). Now you can’t do this for 4 years as Lego does, but it would have been made more realistic to the company’s toils.
Plus, you all have said that you guys are visual people; well, so is the audience! Nobody can judge a theme based on concepts. But with a surprise presentation, it’s easier to understand and find appeal to the work.

But alas, Brickonicle was never done in secret (even though, as it has been stated on the podcast, all the projects and new shows by TTV, supposedly, are). And what we have is a divided community split on certain ideas, yet shocked at others, to the point where this isn’t fun anymore.
Well, at least not for us:
The unseen, unheard majority, whose work, if it exists, is not noticed,

So, this was originally planned to be a re-make of Bionicle, yet all we ended up with was a non-canon method of how Lego makes it’s themes for it only has around 30 poeple, at most I’d say, working at any theme at a given time; not 200+, a segregated community some of whose ideas are completely ignored by you, even though you state you look for inspiration, and a maybe 1% complete Bionicle fan-project which is completely formed, managed, and discussed by you and yours .

I’ll conclude with this:
I hope I was not rude nor offensive to the owners or fans of this project. I understand that it was simply a pastime in which select fans could remake a beloved theme in their liking. However, the project was conducted badly, to the point where pretty much none of the community (and even some of the cast) 100% agree to the direction the theme is going. It failed to replicate the design process at Lego (on multiple levels).There are winners and losers in everything, that’s true, but it’s easier to cope and feel for the product of a toil, rather than it’s original components. It had potential, and still, does, but I for one, can say that I am disappointed on how this is and where it’s headed.

tl;dr - Brickonicle was close, but no cigar.

4 Likes