Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Humans as a whole don’t always and I’d go so far as to say often don’t have a reason why they do things.

Heck I felt compelled to make this post even though logically I shouldn’t because six others have tried and failed to help you see opinions beyond your own.

To be technical themes are in everything, but keep talking I gotta get some popcorn to see where this rat train leads.

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I don’t disagree with this, but I’m doing what I’m doing because @John_Smith is applying a separate standard to prequel and sequel characters and I’m trying to make him see that.

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Fair enough; but not liking the themes present doesn’t make a bad movie, either. I don’t feel adequately equipped to actually analyze TLJ’s usage of themes, though, so I’m going to leave it at that.

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Well… So, he failed to catch a “car thief”, he failed to protect his buddy’s shop from a bunch of criminals, he failed to catch Shocker and Shocker II, he failed to beat Vulture, he failed again to beat Vulture, and he failed again to beat Vulture. Oh, and he failed to beat Shocker. So that’s kind of more than a third. Don’t get me wrong, Homecoming is my favorite superhero movie, and I love Marvel as much as Star Wars and LOTR.

Because they’re evil, and Rey knows it. Rey wants to help because she doesn’t feel like she belongs anywhere, and has a decent set of morals. Also, they tried to kill her before she tried to kill them.

Because she’s heard all of these legends of the Jedi being these great heroes (no matter how far from the truth that may be), and sees them as the embodiment of good.

Because she sees his struggle, and decides to use that. And she’s a good guy.

Some of those could have been answered by TFA and doesn’t even need inspection in TLJ.

I heard somewhere that it could have destroyed the cannon, but I don’t believe it. I think the speeder would have melted before reaching it.

Judging from the fact that she ran into him from the side, and even the opposite side the cockpit was on, unlikely.

“It’s about saving those you love, not destroying those you hate!”

While I guess I can see where people find this cheesy, it is one of my favorite lines in the movie, next to “Every word you just said… was wrong”. Using hatred against the First Order is like fighting fire with fire- you end up with fire whoever wins, like the Clone Wars. Okay, I’m just going to stop more before I become some hippie spokesperson or something.

Does it matter if the subplot ends up with some huge powerful event or outcome? It was character development for Finn, and introduced some cool characters like DJ. And BB-8 was amazing throughout it. While perhaps the subplot was overall pointless, sometimes pointless things are still enjoyable.

Opinion.

Care to name a few? I’ve forgotten, it’s been a while.

Opinion. I actually thought the action in this was some of the best in any Star Wars, Revenge of the Sith is the only one I can really argue to be similar.

Like what? Please don’t say Holdo!

Hey! Me too! Sweet!

Sorry to sound so argumentative, I get pretty passionate about Star Wars.

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As shown in TFA, Rey spent her youth dreaming of fighting evil. And after the events of TFA (getting kidnapped, losing Han, etc.), it’s even more personal now.

She’s clearly very idealistic. It makes sense that despite becoming disillusioned with Luke, her idealism would compel her to remain loyal to the Jedi teachings, which aren’t fallible like a person is. (Granted, this is the least clear motive out of these three, but it’s also the one least emphasized by the film.)

Because when he reached out to her through the Force, she saw his vulnerable side, and began to think of him as a person rather than simply an enemy.

That’s the clear implication, given that the cannon was about to fire. Also considering that Rose colliding with Finn didn’t do enough damage to be fatal, it’s unlikely that one of those rickety old ships would’ve done much damage to the cannon.

Yeah, probably, but it also seems plausible that in the heat of the moment, she figured possibly killing him by crashing into him was preferable to him definitely dying by hitting (or being hit by) the cannon. Chalk it down to movie logic–not everything has to make perfect logical sense if it makes at least some sense emotionally.

I refer you to jayzor’s post, but it is, of course, your right not to like the themes or subplot. But the themes are definitely there, and thus the Finn and Rose plot does contribute to the film, regardless of one’s subjective positive or negative feelings towards it.

Bold strategy, Cotton!

Lots of great movies have plot holes and even more have plot contrivances. Also, what specifically did you think was a plot hole?

Unless you can give me a tangible “filmmaking” reason why, I’m gonna say that comes down to personal preference. If nothing else, the throne room scene had me enraptured as much if not more than any other lightsaber battle in the series.

Such as?

This also largely comes down to personal preference. If you don’t like it, I respect your opinion, but as something of an aspiring writer myself, I found it to be brilliant. But all that aside, I’m not presently interested in having a debate over subjective enjoyment of various elements of the film–only that which can be measured somewhat objectively and which is necessary or at least beneficial for any film, like acting quality, character depth, etc.

Well, I’m not convinced, though admittedly I didn’t explain myself as well as I could have initially.


I just wanna reiterate–I’m not trying to have a debate about whether TLJ is a particularly good movie or not, just pointing out that saying the prequels are better largely comes down to a subjective “enjoyment” preference. There’s nothing wrong with that, but from the perspective of “these are the bare minimum requirements for a movie not to be laughingstock from a critical perspective,” TLJ is much better-made.

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Honestly, I don’t think anyone’s going to be convinced here. If you really want someone who can argue the case that TLJ is bad a lot better than me, look up MauLer’s TLJ series. He has ~six hours of complaints about the movie. I’m a bit tired of debating this though so I won’t be responding further.

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Fair enough! I in turn would point you to RedLetterMedia’s prequel videos if you haven’t seen them and don’t mind some offensive humor. I think his “character test” near the beginning of his TPM analysis is particularly enlightening. But anyhow, happy hunting.

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I’ve already seen those and I am aware of the Plinkett test. I agree pretty much completely with them.

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Well, good to know we can agree on something! XD

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Here’s something I agree with! :smile: Hear, hear!

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a problem with those however is that they have become the “go to guide” in why one should hate the prequels, and George Lucas himself.

and by the way, the dislike for George Lucas is so bad, that people actually want to remove any credit he has with the Original trilogy, instead wanting to portray him as one of the biggest problems that almost doomed Star Wars to an early grave.

That’s what I call “taking things too far”.

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Honestly my love for Star Wars movies seems to show little bias (besides Attack of the Clones, gosh I hate that episode). I like the prequels, original trilogy, AND the sequel trilogy, all for various reasons.

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The prequels do have good memes.

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The term “Blank is an objectively bad movie” kind of defeats the purpose of the word “objectively”

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I think George is a very creative guy, and he deserves a lot of credit for the Original Trilogy, but he really needed either a co-writer or a script doctor for the prequels. Probably needed a new director as well.

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I get where you’re coming from and I mostly agree, hence why I didn’t actually go so far as to definitively call the prequels “objectively bad.” However, look at a movie like Plan 9 From Outer Space or The Room. No one thinks those are good movies, except some of the people who made them. But if there’s absolutely no “objectivity,” why are those movies nearly universally held up as examples of terrible movies? I think the answer is a concept called “intersubjectivity”–objective criteria may or may not exist, but there are things common to the human experience that can broadly be agreed upon. Things like how good actors are at conveying emotion, whether or not the characters presented seem to have the depth of personality that real people do, and whether the dialogue has the cadence of normal speech. (Obviously there are exceptions to these criteria in the case of movies that are intentionally very stylized, but they apply at face value to the vast majority of mainstream films.) So while I don’t really think you can make claims like “X is objectively the greatest/worst movie ever,” I do think that, taking intersubjectivity into account, you can say that some movies are better than others. And the prequels do a pretty bad job of meeting those intersubjective criteria. :stuck_out_tongue:

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he tried to get people for that, but they all turned him down. the last one apparently also said “if you have so many ideas, why don’t you make the movie.”

really, i don’t get why people seriously think that George Lucas surrounded with yes-men and reacted negativly if anyone said anything against his ideas, it just seems to be a continuation with the belife that was made in the prequel era that George Lucas was a talentless hack who got lucky because more talented people made gold out of his trash.

i would recommend watching SF Debris lucas trilogy, as they go into detail about the creation of the first Movie, the sequels and about Lucas time making the prequels:

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I still love the Prequels. Of course, that’s completely objective, and I have been known to be an optimist!

What I think should have happened is we should have had the same director for all three Star Wars. Was there a reason Abrams did not direct 8? Because I find it weird he’d direct 7 and 9 but not the middle, which usually has the biggest plot revelations in trilogies, from experience. Sometimes I wonder how different the Last Jedi would be if JJ Abrams would have directed it, but we may have gotten 5 remade rather than 5, 6, and something else all mixed into one movie.

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I don’t mind too much them having different directors. In the OT, George didn’t even direct Empire, he just wrote the plot. I think more important was the fact that there was a change in writers and a lack of a plan for where the trilogy was going.