Star Wars Topic

By “offering criticism,” you’re basically just stating what you feel didn’t work and, in some cases, what you think can be done to improve in the future. And you also respect other people’s opinions. This is what I, as a fan, try to do. But by “Forcing (pun slightly intended) everyone to be on your side,” that’s when you go at someone whose opinion differs from yours and say “U SUK YOU’RE NOT A REEL FAN YOUR WRONG ABOUT THIS MOVEE!”

I didn’t say they should. Yes, the criticisms toward the sequel trilogy have been valid. Like I said, I’m a fan of the sequel trilogy. But the one criticism I agree with is that, had Disney stuck to their original plan (however vague it may have been), then the movies would’ve turned out better.

And yet the fans just don’t stop trashing the creators, because they demand perfection. No matter what happens, there will still be hate. And the way the filmmakers take it…well, all things considered, I think it goes both ways. The filmmakers should put their best feet forward in their production, and the fans should stop being so toxic that their hate comments bleed out of each other’s ears.

You know, Christopher Nolan did say that he was literally making up the Dark Knight trilogy as he went. But then again, that trilogy ended up being consistent, so…your point is proven, I guess?

Again: they were only changing the plan because they wanted to conform to what the fans wanted. But, whether they could’ve stuck to the original plan while still doing that…that debate could go on for a while.

I for one despise the sequel trilogy and love Star Wars Resistance? What does that make me?

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A monster :stuck_out_tongue:

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I’m just going to respond to some things that were responses to my post. I could go on, but I won’t.

That’s something I see (besides Rise of Skywalker, I know people blame Last Jedi for it being bad, but I really think it could have been handled much better within the actual movie), but I was just saying in comparison to all of Star Wars. Star Wars is a great franchise (not a great fanbase), and I feel the sequels just didn’t compare. Especially since we have films like Rogue One that prove that Disney 100% can make good Star Wars films.

That’s not what I mean. In Last Jedi, Snoke calls Kylo Ren a “child in a mask,” so in frustration to Snoke’s disappointment, Red smashes the mask. Then, after Snoke is killed, he remakes the mask? Why, because no one was telling him he was a child anymore? Kylo Ren’s entire character feels very forced and weird between the three movies.

This is actually quite likely. I liked the Last Jedi and all, but as a whole, the sequel trilogy is easily my least favorite.

In what way? They were hated because they didn’t fit the image the audience had built around Star Wars. I grew up with both the prequels and the OT, so my image of Star Wars always incorporated both parts.

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That doesn’t make you a bad person or anything like that. That’s your opinion.

Kylo Ren’s character is that he wants to be the greatest Dark Side user in existence. When Snoke told him that that wasn’t possible, Kylo Ren smashed his helmet out of frustration. This was also supposed to represent his conflict in the movie. By the end, he had chosen the Dark Side. Him repairing his helmet in the next movie represents his embracement of the Dark Side.

Well, think about it. The original trilogy was a major success, and making more movies was a way of capitalizing on their success. And the movies’ appeal was “Darth Vader, an iconic villain. How’d you like to see his origin story?” Not to mention, there was a truckload of fanservice-Jango Fett and his son Boba, the fact that Anakin was the one who built C-3PO, Yoda’s presence, the entire ending scene of Episode III, the Clone Wars being based off of one throwaway line of Episode IV, the hologram of the Death Star plans in Episode II, a young Owen Lars…the list just keeps on going.

I agree. But I do also tend to see a lot of reasonable critics of the Sequels getting branded as these types of haters unjustifiably. The Internet is a place where people tend to lose their sense of grayness for a more black-and-white approach. Therefore, even someone who points out obvious flaws can be labelled as a hateful troll by people who are equally as biased, but just on the opposite side. However, you’re absolutely right that no one should be calling anyone a fake fan for their opinions.

Some fans have this attitude, but others don’t. Someone people’s constant criticisms might appear to be demands for perfection when they’re really demands for a higher standard. That’s the one thing I dislike about criticism nowadays (and it goes back to the whole black-and-white thing on the Internet): most people now fall into one of two camps, the camps of defending the Sequels relentlessly in the face of criticism, and of trashing them mercilessly in the face of arguments that highlight some of their strengths. While I personally find more weakness in them than strength, there are elements of the trilogy (the basic ideas for the new characters, for instance) that I do like, and would have been fine with if they had been done to a higher standard of craftsmanship.

Christopher Nolan is a far better writer than most of the people Disney hired, and even though his trilogy is meant to be watched as a whole, the individual films can function as standalones. The Sequels were never meant to do so, and thus they required a far more consistent vision to make them work.

I disagree, because as we’ve said before, TLJ was–at the very least–an attempt to be subversive. If the plan was to cater to fans, why let Rian Johnson make such a deliberately out-of-the-box film that was sure to create division?

And besides, changing the plan in order to cater to fans is obviously not going to result in any consistency. I agree that many problems in the Sequels resulted from a desire to please everyone, but there are fundamental issues beneath that impulse which doomed them from the start to begin with. The Story Team, for one, had almost no interaction with the filmmakers, to the point that the new canon is now almost just as inconsistent and choppy as the EU. Even the directors of the films themselves failed to communicate, with Rian Johnson admitting that he didn’t even read TFA’s script prior to writing TLJ. Colin Trevorrow’s leaked script for Episode IX indicates that he was attempting to work from TLJ’s resolution, but he was inexplicably fired, leading to the mess we got in TROS.

On the issue of how fan toxicity at least partially influenced the course of the trilogy, I agree with you. But I cannot trace everything Disney has done solely back to their desire to please fans when I see clear evidence that there were serious errors in the management of this trilogy that have nothing to do with fan response, and everything to do with a lack of communication among various people in the company.

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This topic has been discussed to death but I’ll put my 2 cents here.

I agree more or less here. Yes, there were a lot of toxic fans online that were awful and certainly didn’t help this trilogy be a cohesive set of films. But you can’t blame it all on them, there were some missteps from the beginning.

I’ll say upfront that I actually did enjoy the Sequel trilogy quite a bit, even though they do have a lot of problems. But I cannot deny the trilogy wasn’t poorly handled, especially the way it all wraps up.

The way RoS was handled and a lot of SW content in general leaves a similar feeling that I had with how Bionicle G2 ended. I just don’t want to hear about it anymore. At the very least for a while I need a break until I can enjoy good things for what they are again. The good news is that we have Mandalorian and Clone Wars had a great ending. So, we know there is still some good things. But with a combination of having no plan for a huge franchise of films and a toxic fan base, a lot of people are just gonna throw their hands up in the air and say they’re done.

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The Sequels failed because they’re just bad sequels. No growth is done. All they do is tear down the world that was established in the Original Trilogy, including it’s characters and their accomplishments.

Not only this, but they failed to entice us with their new characters. Their focus on them just kept shifting each movie to the point where they were written inconsistently. I still don’t know Rey, Finn, and Poe. By the time The Rise of Skywalker ended, I felt I had just gotten to know the characters. It was an awful bookend.

The sucky part? Palpatine ultimately wins in the end. The Skywalkers, by blood, are finished. Palpatine’s lineage survives through Rey. There is no “Rise of Skywalker”, this was the end of the Skywalkers. How does this trilogy end? Rey buries the past and goes back to living on Tantooine. Just alone. I feel like this is a death of the Jedi and the Sith, which is a terrible conclusion. Good does not win, it dies with the evil, and the galaxy is not in a better state because of it.

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Believe me, people have, it’s referred to as the “ring theory”.

iT’s LiKe PoEtRy Y’kNoW tHeY rHyMe

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A stronger ending would have been the older woman asking what Rey’s Surname was, and her just responding with Rey, just Rey. Showing that she is free to be her own person, not bogged down by any flimsy connections to previous characters.

Besides, They killed off Temmin “Snap” Wexley in The Rise of Skywalker, automatically the worst film in the franchise.

D=<

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And it didn’t have shriv

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I agree; and I also found the characters to have a charm to them that made me care about them and what might become of them. Sure, we have limited knowledge about their pasts, but like I said, I found myself invested in them and interested in where they’d end up. That’s a sign that the movies are doing something right.

Because the fans were demanding a movie that was different from anything we’ve seen before; Rian Johnson ended up going overboard on this.

The way I heard it, he was taking the movie in a direction that the studio executives didn’t like.

My main point is, it goes both ways. Fans have been trashing Disney and treating them like the Devil, when really, the fans’ toxicity is just as bad.

That’s exactly what Disney is doing. They’ve promised that they will never do Episode X, Xi, or XII, and that any and all future Star Wars movies will be separate from the Skywalker saga. And even then, there are still some years until we get…whatever movie is coming next.

Who said Rey was living on Tatooine? She just went there to bury the lightsabers as a way of honoring Luke and Leia. And she adopted the name “Skywalker” to keep the legacy alive. I think that’s a decent way to let good win. Although…

This would’ve fit well with the themes of the previous movies-that your origins shouldn’t define you. But then again, if Rey’s name was just “Rey,” then that really would show that she doesn’t need to ride anyone’s coattails to be awesome.

It’s a good idea, but then again, it’s still a good idea. Nice :stuck_out_tongue:

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I agree. I was interested in where they ended up, and I thought some of their backstories would lead to interesting conflicts. But I was mostly disappointed in how they turned out because I felt that nothing really panned out. Rey’s more interesting traits were sacrificed for an overzealous interest in who her parents were, Poe’s character arc in TLJ was left almost entirely unacknowledged in TROS, to the point where he basically became a side character, and Finn’s unique background as a defected Stormtrooper was resolved in a really bland way, which ended up reducing him to Rey’s sidekick instead of giving him a real moment to shine.

I do remember people hoping that it would not be like ESB, which was a reasonable hope, and one which I don’t think was too difficult to manage. I feel that TLJ tried so hard not to be ESB that it ended up becoming ESB, if that’s not too paradoxical…

I heard that as well, and my response there was solely based on my reading of his script, which I think actually stuck with Rian Johnson’s ideas instead of trying to blatantly course-correct, as JJ did. Even though TLJ wasn’t great, in my mind, I would have preferred a final film that accepted it as its predecessor and tried to work within its guidelines, rather than an attempt to overcorrect.

I agree. People on both sides need to calm down. Personally, I blame Lucasfilm more than I blame the big, abstract corporation that is Disney. It’s clear that those in charge of George Lucas’ legacy were probably incorrectly chosen, because they lacked an understanding of Star Wars as a story, rather than a product. I think the Sequels would have been markedly better if a storyteller like Dave Filoni was in charge of the way the films went. Kathleen Kennedy is undoubtedly an excellent producer, but she should not have been given as much control over the direction of the story when her relationship to Star Wars was more tangential, as opposed to Filoni, who was George’s protege, and has an intimate knowledge of the story.

I think a great example of the kinds of problems I’m referring to can been seen in the Han Solo film. The creators of that film chose to include a Darth Maul cameo, but–as the voice actor for Maul, Sam Witwer, recently revealed–they did so with little influence from the Story Team. At first, they weren’t even going to hire Witwer to provide the voice of Maul. When they were told about him, they weren’t even aware that he had played Maul, because none of them had seen the Clone Wars. Then, when they did hire Witwer, who is a Star Wars geek, he had to offer them corrections on shooting Maul, as they had crafted a number of inconsistencies into his appearance that contradicted where he would have been and looked like in that era (for example, his lightsaber was incorrect).

This illustrates what I think the major problem is on “Disney’s” end–or, more accurately, Lucasfilm’s. Without last-minute changes, there would have been incredible inconsistencies in Maul’s cameo, because no one who worked on Solo had bothered to research his character, and the Story Team (who are responsible for continuity) hadn’t bothered to check in and ensure that continuity was being upheld. It came down to a voice actor to make everything work, when these things should have been accounted for by the producers themselves. The creators of Solo knew Maul was alive, but that was it–they saw his cameo as nothing more than a way to excite viewers, and they would have gone ahead with it without bothering to ensure that things made sense. That’s a pretty egregious oversight to almost let slip past, and I can’t even forgive that it didn’t happen, because it was an actor that had to point it out, not a producer…

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“Adopting” the name doesn’t change the fact that she is the grandchild of Palpatine. Perhaps she rejected that, but the blood is still there.

My issue is that the lightsabers are just buried and we’re left with no indication she plans on training new Jedi, besides getting a yellow lightsaber. So then, what else will she do? We don’t know. The movie ends open-ended, depsite being the last film of the trilogy. So things are not tied up, and we didn’t get to know our main characters well.

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True, but this is Star Wars we’re talking about. There’s gonna be novels about what happened after TROS. Just mark my words.

Sure, but the movies shouldn’t be relying on books to tell their main story. To supplement it? Sure; setting more stories in the universe is cool. But the movies should be able to stand on their own, and tell a complete, coherent story without relying on books or other materials to fill in details. If a main point of this trilogy was the future of the Jedi (which was the whole point of the Last Jedi), then I’d expect some sort of clear conclusion to that idea within the trilogy. So that being left ambiguous isn’t great, even if a book is going to inevitably address the fact.

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much needed background/resolution in a novel =/= a satisfying conclusion to one of the most famous film franchises of all time

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The core issue is Disney did not green light the sequels because there was one story they were passionate about telling. It was because SW is a huge IP that they knew they could profit off of. As long as they could reproduce the nestolgia of the OT.

But you cannot reproduce that exact feeling. You cannot truly reproduce nostalgia alone. It will always feel lacking. Epsecially us Bionicle fans should know this very well.

The best SW media takes an element of what made the OT great, but twists it around a little or adds something different. Creating something familiar but new at the same time. Giving us new feelings that make it stand apart from the rest.

The Sequels fail for a variety of reasons, but ultimatly the foundation is rotten. The Sequels will not be remembered for its own merits. It will be remembered only because the Star Wars brand is slapped on. Take that away and what do you have?

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Also, Star wars needs to stop stealing fan designs

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