Dang couldn’t they shorten the voting period for each contest?
Unless maybe they do the Hagah in one contest it might go by a little faster.
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Both of these are not likely. While the voting period could be shortened, it could also be lengthened to the same extent. It all depends on how many people submit entries for each character, there is not proper way to control this. For the Hagah issue, they are separate characters, even if they are one team with similar builds. Not everyone that could produce one entry at a time would be able to produce all four at once. Besides this, let’s say if there were an entry with your favorite Gaaki, but your least favorite Pouks, Bomonga, or Kualus. Would you really be happy voting against your own self interests. The only thing I can figure to reduce the time during the Hagah contests is if the administrators would join submission periods together into maybe one three or four week schedule. Beyond this, there’s not really much that can be changed about this current situation.
The only thing we can do is thank TTV for hosting such a grand-scale competition in order to appease the Bionicle community. Let’s hope they don’t get burned out.
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I thought that Hagah conest would be separate ones but will be held at the same time period, isn’t that right? Also I think that this is not bad that contest are too long, so we can enjoy participating and voting for a longer time. Also I think that Voting period will be shorter, it is just the first contest with many problems to handle that makes it so long. Also I wanted to suggest a more long time period for submissioning artwork, 2 weeks is too short period…
@Kanohi_Cantri I hope very hard that these, and even more, contests will be held and that TTV Cast and members won’t burn out.
Hail the Canonization Contets! Best of wishes to all organizers, paricipants and voters!
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I’m definitely happy with the voting system used in this round, hope it sticks going forward ^^
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Likewise. This time you nailed it, I think.
So, seeing how the Helryx contest is approaching its end, I think it’s time to propose something I’ve been thinking about for a while now.
If I’m not mistaken, it will be decided by voting which character contest will be held next. I would like to propose in that case that whenever the votes for the next contest happen, an additional question will be asked:
Do you want the canon contests to continue? (Yes/No)
I know I’ve been somewhat vocal in the past about not wanting the canon contests - and I still think that way - but let me explain my reasoning for why doing as I propose would only be fair:
Greg said that he was fine with more canon contests as long as the community was fine with them. But right now, even if large parts of the community were against more canon contests, the only people able to actually stop them would be Greg himself and TTV. Greg’s word would be accepted, of course, but TTV probably would have a hard time after canceling the contests - in the hypothetical case that they wanted to for one reason or another. Because even if a lot of people were fine with it, there would be bound to be others who’d throw up a real fuss about it. And that’s far from ideal. No group should become a target simply because they are the only ones able to make a decision they think is best when you can have that decision be made by the community as a whole instead.
Of course, TTV - by virtue of hosting the contests - would still be able to cancel them if they wanted to, but with my proposition it wouldn’t rest in their hands alone.
Long story short - I’m proposing that the community as a whole, who enabled the canon contests happening in the first place, to also have the power to end them in between contests if the majority so chooses. Nothing is lost that way, there’s only gain.
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This may be a good idea for a future poll, but currently I don’t believe it should be implemented for the next round. This comes from how Helryx’s competition has been fraught with disappointment/displeasure, mainly due to how the MOC portion was handled. But after receiving feed back from this very-much-a trial contest, it does seem as though people are more satisfied with the many tweaks added to the voting system that has made the recent portion of the art contest run relatively much smoother. So people might feel a bit more bitter now than they would after another session where an enhanced system is put in place from the start. This is why this idea should be delayed, if for just one more heat.
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We already voted on whether or not we wanted the contests
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Yes, but @Gilahu is suggesting an out option. This would be designed for those who wish to change their vote towards whether they want canon contests or not. Of course, it is not likely to stop as it would appear that the majority of this community wishes for it to continue, but it would be more inclusive and demonstrative of those who wish to oppose these contests.
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I second that, that’s a good idea.
I am somewhat concerned about the possibility of such a feature being abused - if those who oppose the contests continuing are still in the minority, but vote-brigade to get the contests to end prematurely, it could ruin a nice thing for the majority who still want these to happen. I don’t think it’s a bad idea necessarily? But I don’t think it’s really something we want to do right away; would be better to save for if or when TTV feels the general attitude towards the contests has soured, and use that poll to confirm whether or not that is actually the case.
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I think at the least we could do a survey of sorts at the end, not so much to vote to end it, but at least if people’s feelings have changed or not towards having the contests.
The original 400 something votes that got this started was a 75% yes to 25% no ish margin, I’ve definitely seen people say they regret voting so it would be interesting to see if the opinion has actually drastically changed or not. (There’d also be potentially more people voting, too)
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I’m open to a survey to gauge interest, but I’ve been saying that I am unwilling to entertain ending them after the first one being rough. It’s a defeatist attitude, and anyone touting that they’re tired of the contests also didn’t run them in any capacity.
I’m tired too. I’m ready to continue. It’s day and night how things got better during the art portion, and I’m ready to put those practices and improvements into use during the next one.
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The art portion is handled much better than the moc one, I admit, but the damage has already been done. I doubt the same moc would have won the first part of the contest if said part was handled differently. Nothing against Double’s Helryx (well actually, to be fair, I don’t like it at all, but that doesn’t matter now), but it’s clear many people voted for her only because they didn’t want Hoseryx to win. In my opinion that was hardly fair for other contestants, who received fair less votes for this reason.
But that’s not the only issue I have with how the moc portion was handled. The participants were told that Helryx should be frail/thin, whereas frail and thin don’t necessarily mean the same thing. The provided quote about her “not being a Makuta” was also taken out of context, causing many entries to be built in a way that Helryx resembled a Makuta, despite that never being Greg’s intention. There were some things that needed to be clarified and that clarification was, sadly, never provided by the organizers.
Lastly, to be honest, I don’t get the need for two seperate portions of the contest - a moc one and an art one, when only the art one really matters in the end. Couldn’t we just have the art portion only? I understand your argument about wanting to allow more people to participate, because not everybody has enough artistic skills to create an artwork for the contest etc etc, but that was never an issue with, say, Surel or Nikila contests. I would save the moc portion for characters that don’t need to have any new Kanohi designed, like Lariska, Nidhiki or Johmak - these can be created entirely out of already existing Lego pieces. My other issue with this is that there were some people who didn’t vote for a particular moc entry because they didn’t like the head/mask used, despite it being a placeholder - as if the contest rules weren’t clear enough.
In the end, I gotta say that although I was one of the people who were in favor of organizing these contests, seeing how the first one was/is being handled I can’t help but say that I’m disappointed and wouldn’t mind cancelling the other ones. I doubt I’m the only one, so I second Gilahu’s idea about the poll.
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So has no good come of it? Can no more good come from anymore? Has the damage been done on a wide-scale or just to you?
So instead of seeing how better structuring/handling of a future contest might go, it’s best to just stop here and leave everyone sour? I can’t agree with that. That is… just such a defeatist and negative attitude to hold.
Entrants interpreted the descriptions how they did. We had titan Helryx’s, ones with orange, and obviously ones that were built differently based off that description. How many were disqualified for not abiding by the source material? None. It was to allow for as much creative freedom as possible while still adhering to a framework of which to base creations off of.
If you’re referring to the Mata-build discussion, then you won’t be satisfied by this answer. Even if Helryx was confirmed to resemble the Toa Mata, we would not have made that a mandate. But as the matter stands, we have conflicting and contradictory quotes about that from Greg. As that’s the case, we could not in good conscious mandate that Helryx be a Toa Mata build. It’s too uncertain and too restrictive.
If you’re suggesting we run community based comments and disallow the overwhelming majority of the BIONICLE community from participating, then I’m not sure we’re going to get anything productive from our conversation.
It is not a 1:1 comparison between Helryx (the first ever Toa and leader of the Order of Mata Nui) and Surel/Nikila (minor characters with minor roles of little significance).
I didn’t like the first series of Constraction sets ever made, the Slizers. I suppose there is no room for growth, and we should shutter the idea of Constraction.
That is what you’re saying, and I can’t agree with that. I’m sorry that you’ve been disappointed. I’ve been immensely disappointed. That doesn’t mean “give up, I didn’t like the end result so we should just stop it” is a mentality I will ever entertain.
I have heard no productive or engaging take about ending these contests yet, and I suspect I never will.
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I never said no good has come of it. In fact, a lot of good has come of it. However, I would say that at the same time a lot of “bad” has come of it as well, in my opinion much more than it should. There are many people that I’ve seen say that they have no further interest in participating or just simply watching these contests unfold due to how the first one was handled.
I doubt that would leave everyone sour, and please keep in mind that I don’t demand you to stop those contests now, or say that you should. I’m just saying that the poll that Gilahu suggested is a good idea and would better reflect people’s feeling towards the contests as of now.
You said that was to allow as much creative freedom as possible, despite the art portion requiring the participants to base their artwork off of an already existing moc?
And I didn’t say that those Makuta-resembling Helryx mocs were bad, nor I have any issues with any of the artistic interpretations of this character that were submitted (well, except for the obvious). My point is that the people who made these more villainy-looking Helryx mocs may have made them that way because they thought they had to be made that way because of the provided quote, which was, again, taken out of context and not explained.
I don’t know what you mean with the Mata-build so I won’t comment on that.
I disagree. First of all, well, not everybody can participate in everything, boohoo, it sucks but that’s how life is. Also, again, I didn’t say that you should abandon the moc portion completely, please read again what I wrote in my post.
Secondly, while I do agree that Helryx is a much more important character than Surel/Nikila, this form of having two portions - a moc one and an art one - is, if I’m not mistaken, intended for all contests, right? If yes, then, well, what about characters like Chiara or Marendar? They are just as important as Nikila or Surel, what would your argument be if they were first in line in these contests?
That’s a cheap comparison, but I have one as well. I did my job poorly, but I don’t see the reason for why my boss would want to fire me. Can’t he just give me the benefit of a doubt and a second chance?
Again, I never said that these contests should end. I’m just saying I’m disappointed with how the first one was handled and I have the feeling other people may be disappointed as well. I really hope these contests will continue and will be handled better, I really do, and I wish you good luck with achieving that, however, I also think you should at least let people have a say in this. If they don’t want the contests to continue, then I think you should listen, if they don’t, then, well, nothing happened, we’re moving on and everything’s good. But at least let people have a say in this.
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These argument points are the reason I made my original reply to Gilahu’s suggestion. If we wait on this issue for even just one more competition, those who feel disappointed by the first might very well have their minds changed by a revised, seemingly much improved voting system for a second. Then, after a good round has been experienced, we can take a poll to see how many are still displeased even after these revisions. It would be more representative of those who truly don’t wish for these competitions to continue versus those who were just displeased with how the first competition was handled.
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Many people who voted for Hoseryx did so to protest the contests being held at all; not every person, but certainly a large number as shown by numerous posts across various different social media sites and discords. A vocal minority trying to rally support from people barely even involved in the BIONICLE community proper in order to sabotage something they disagreed with. Following that, people vote for Double’s because they want a legitimate entry to win; common voting practices detail that being the case, and it has always been the case in BIONICLE community polls, even as far back as BZPower. Hoseryx isn’t the only “meme entry” to ever make it into the final polls of community contests, and even aside from the meme angle of things, people do sometimes vote for things they’re not necessarily crazy about to stop something they would prefer much less from being victorious. That’s a common failing of the voting system, and someone we’ve addressed with a much superior system in the artwork contest.
My point is though: You’re using a movement at least partially spearheaded by people who want the contests to stop, a movement you PERSONALLY are irritated by because it contributed to an entry you don’t like to win) as evidence for why the contests were mismanaged and should stop. That’s circular logic, and I don’t buy into it one bit. Improvements have been and should continue to be made to the formula to prevent issues in the future where we can, we shouldn’t give up wholesale.
Additionally, the Makuta thing… isn’t remotely confusing to anyone familiar with the material at all, and no Makuta-esque MoCs made it super high in the voting processes. The quote was included as part of the full scope of description we provided for Helryx, and the full context is available to anyone who is a BIONICLE fan; as such, if they’re interested enough to enter this contest, they know who Helryx is, and can go read the full scope of her appearance for themselves (heck, they probably already HAVE read the story serial and so know the context for why that Makuta bit is in there!). Only a handful of MoCs even had Makuta-esque imagery, one made by @Connor_Hoffman which had been worked on as early as 2018 as part of his own separate AU project and as such, wasn’t related to the quote being taken out of context at all. I don’t think a lack of clarity on our part played any role in the contest or created any problems whatsoever regarding this Makuta bit.
Regarding including MoC contests and art contests; that is a key cornerstone of this entire initiative, the entire premise. Being inclusive. BIONICLE is a LEGO property, and LEGO is the centerpiece of its very existence and that of the community formed around it.
To deny MoCists the opportunity to create and be a part of this because of… what? Some desire for simplicity? One contest being easier to follow than two per character? That’s not worth it to me. I’ve seen arguments about separating the custom mask from the character art portion, and I’m willing to entertain those on a conceptual level, because there are arguments for-and-against. Eradicating MoCs entirely though? Forcing everyone to either learn to draw or get out? No thanks. I have zero interest in disregarding the majority of BIONICLE fans and prohibiting them from contributing in any way except artwork because of a misguided attempt to make something easy-to-follow even easier.
Additionally, I’m not opposed to the concept of a survey, but I do take great umbrage with the notion that people “should be allowed to have a say.” They already have, man. We conducted the poll about these contests for weeks, and even though the winning majority was massive, there were a lot of dissenters and people who objected. If after every roadblock, every subjective failing, every “entry winning that ____ person doesn’t want to win,” every minor, personal gripe that someone may have towards the process, we reopened the polls to give those same people an opportunity to raise the same objections that have already been addressed time and time again… we’d never get anything done.
I didn’t like the winner? Time to call for another vote. People in the community being trolls? Revote. Vote brigading? Revote. Take issue with a rule? Time for a revote. Don’t think Greg should have the power to canonize things? Revote. Didn’t like the contests in the first place but want to use peoples’ subjective issues to cast doubt on them and hope public opinion swings towards the negative? Well we GOTTA have a revote.
I’m not saying your grievances aren’t legitimate (there were tons of issues with the MoC portion, and I look forward to digging into all of them in a Nak & Jay on Wednesday), but I just feel it’s a slippery slope. Again, I’m not against a survey to gauge current feelings in a post-Helryx atmosphere, but I do feel that the community has spoken quite clearly about their views on these contests, and the wealth of participation and creativity displayed throughout the Helryx portion has more than proved their potential and the success of the whole initiative.
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@Eljay I have a question about 8a that may seem somewhat arbitrary, but I feel like it has some precedent. The 2002 Tahu Nuva’s flame swords (Part 44035) were cut and used on one of the fan-designed Dark Hunters in the DH book. Said Dark Hunter is named “Charger,” and his version of the flame blades have the flames cut off. Would these modified blades be acceptable for this contest because of their previous usage in a canon character?
And for 8c, this may have been answered, but are capes that we’ve made inappropriate?
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Keep it up Eljay! I think the contests are great and they add a lot to Bionicle. I appreciate all you do and i’m excited to see the next contests
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