You mean his Kualsi-shaped Volitak? 
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To add to this, one could argue that the Mata had the same build, but allowed for variety such as making Onua a hunchback and reversing Pohatu’s torso. The Metru build sets we got were mostly clones of one another, but I don’t see why the Hagah can’t have their own spins on the build as well.
Whether or not custom torsos should be allowed or not, I don’t have a strong horse in the race, really. As I’ve said before, entries that don’t fit the metru aesthetic won’t get that far, custom torso or not. We keep arguing over semantics, as far as I’m concerned, with no end in sight. I’m glad in some ways people are passionate about it, but given the likely end results, points like “what if someone makes a mostly ccbs entry” are fairly moot.
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You probably think they’re bad because you misunderstand them, and I’ll explain why that’s the case.
I 100% agree with this. That’s why I said:
Which would not only be the torso piece, but also the working gear function and no ball joint shoulders. From the responses in this topic, I doubt people would be in favor of enforcing those though, only the torso piece, which is not consistent reasoning.
And yet most if not all of those builds, while still using the Metru torso, look radically different. Especially that Lhikan, which has fingers. I don’t want to be nicky picky, but I’m not the one advocating entires must use a specific piece to enter, so I don’t have to be.
That’s the point, creating a custom build that matches the Metru torso for those who want to.
Further showing you did not read or understand my post, where I specifically answered this question. If you don’t like my answer, fine, but don’t act like I didn’t.
It would allow the most creativity and participation. Yes, these are canon contests, and canon can’t be thrown out for the sake of creativity, but at the same time, if there’s no opportunity for creativity (which would happen if little to no modifications to the entire Metru build were allowed, which you would be arguing for if you were consistent), then no one would bother entering.
At this point, I think the best option would be either to only have an art contest, which would negate this entire argument, or no contest at all, given how much controversy and headache the whole process has been.
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I think the responses have shown you, that is a very untrue statement.
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Pretty much every modified Metru build still goes farther that I personally would allow (if there were no art contest). Ball joint shoulders, lower leg armor, etc.
So if you define a Metru build by the similarities shared by the Toa Metru and Hagah, as iBunny suggested, then even these slight modifications should not be allowed.
Under those stipulations, yes, I do think no one would care enough to enter, cause it would just be a reskin contest, not a MOC contest, at least not to the point that the last two have been.
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Honestly I’d be fine with mandating the shoulders match the sets. From a moc standpoint I prefer the shoulder mod we all pretty well use, but canonically speaking I think it would be perfectly reasonable to mandate normal shoulders that match Norik & Iruini.
We can always mod the winning moc to have better shoulders after the fact, like plenty of us already do with Norik, Iruini, Lhikan, etc.
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I propose one simple rule for the MOC contest of the Hagah:
- Make it look like it came out of a canister. Please. I’m begging you, it’s not that hard.
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Absolutely agree.
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Here I think I may have found part of what troubles you, and possibly others. I think theres two mindsets for people in these forums. Some people hear Canon Moc Contest and focus on Canon and some focus on Moc as in they want it to be the most elaborate and creative thing possible rather than something that falls in line with canon. I know you’ve said you don’t care either way, but you seem perturbed by the possibility of a ‘reskin’ contest, even saying noone would want to partake (really just people with your shared mentality) which is in actuality probably less than half of the people on the forums. If they look similar to original sets or ‘reskins’ as you’d say, I am unbothered. They’d appear closely to canon characters we already have established and I am okay with this. I don’t need it to be elaborate or super ‘creative’ by your standards. I want an appearance for the character that’s feel genuine in the mediums we already have present for their established counterparts.
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Exactly, I think this is probably the mindset of most voters who hear “Hagah Canonization Contest” as well.
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But unlike the sets designers, we aren’t bound by budget and parts usage like the Hagah were. Using the ball joint shoulder mod doesn’t detract from the look too much, that’s partly why its so common. Feel free not to use it and/or vote against entries that do, but disallowing it seems unreasonable.
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Also I feel like a lot of us are making assumptions. I haven’t actually SEEN many people say ‘disallow’ or ‘ban’ something. Who here is actually trying to actively getting something banned right now? I am not in favor of a lot of stuff but I’m not trying to actively ban anything. Although I am trying to make it clear there are certain designs where if they are followed, I will not vote for.
Norik & Iruni and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Shoulders
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Greg specified that the Hagah were all Metru builds. This has no bearing on the shoulders, chest, arms, or legs, since those are clearly variable, as evidenced by Norik and Iruini.
The gear function’s part of the torso, and the shoulders are really a grey area. On one hand, the Hagah we already have use the original setup; on the other, if a poster wants to display their entry in a certain pose, they may need balljoints.
Yeah…that’s…the point…
At that point, you’re better off using a Metru torso.
This contest isn’t about raw creativity, it’s about creativity within the context of a specific character. If you don’t want to obey the existing limitations to canon, well, too bad. You probably won’t win anyway. And considering the versatility of the Metru build, creativity isn’t even a problem.
This, right here, is the important thing at the end of the day. If you really want a good Hagah entry that’s gonna get the most votes, it should look like an actual set. Artakha? Helryx? They’re not part of a Toa team. We don’t have sets representing other members of their matched set. The Hagah are an entirely different beast. They use an established build. You want a MOC that fits alongside them? Use the ■■■■ Metru build.
I don’t know if it’s accurate to say I’m trying to do something, and I certainly can’t speak for everyone here, but I’m personally on team “ban custom torsos.” I’m not usually a purist or anything, I could normally care less; but for the sake of canon and consistency, I’m 100% against any custom Hagah torsos, and I’ll at least place my votes against any that crop up.
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I think the Metru torso should be a requirement, so any torso that doesn’t use it should be banned. I don’t think the shoulder mod should be banned, though I will trend towards voting for entries without that mod.
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Alrighty, so for the past several days - even spanning to weeks the same issues have played out in a broken record like fashion. I have watched good portions of this take place and have been patient, waiting for it to burn out but for some inane reason we always end up returning back to the same points. Be it varied takes of Devil’s Advocates carrying vague points that function as moving targets or relying on semantics games solely during this all, this whole thing has become a muddled down fest of nonsense.
We shall start with referring back to @SubParFauxPas 's post the address of Greg’s quotes, in which the point of a Metru build was established, and as they said, cut and dry here. Focusing on the following statement they made afterwards is incredibly important as it too is what I was to refer to. A “Definition” of a Metru build or the “design” of one, that has been sitting in contention for some asinine reason is largely an issue equal to such that has been memed numerous times, and fairly so: “is this a man”?.
As iBunny went onto explain after the Greg quotes; we already have this “definition” as Norik and Iruni both deviated from the literal sets from which it was named in this case both the armor designs and arrangements were unique to them, however this as the cut and dry quote would indicate are Metru builds without any form of question to be had. Referring to what @Sharnak also mentions in relation to Pohatu and Onua are also important as this is a distinction related directly to the Metru build controversy and was summed up nicely in the first paragraph.
Moving from that; the color combinations discussion. As indicated between numerous members in canon(Toa of Fire being prime candidates) there is not a set metallic color allotted to any element and realistically no real reason to play a game of there having to be gold or silver only for the special metallic armor gifted to the Hagah. The most I’ve seen this point used for is some shoddily constructed strawman’s that accomplish very little in the grand scheme.
The point nestled in here on the distinctions of custom builds is also problematic. Try as they may I’m afraid no Cherry Poptart will end up being an actual Cherry. Equally here no custom build will be a metru torso per say, I believe the desire for them personally is short sighted as custom =/= better. The claim that it stifles creativity also is ironic in of itself as the means to be creative is to be able to take what is already and transform it as well, not rely solely on build techniques that may be comfortable to someone.
In the end, whether the contest allows it or not is fruits of another garden to have, for now it stands to point out it was previously indicated via TTV in a general overview for said contest that the art section would convert it back to an actual Metru torso regardless not class some brand new build technique as a Metru build. This contest is for giving named characters depictions not for canonizing build techniques.
The whole deliberation on the art contest baffles me. The purpose of it in the end is to be able to depict the Hagah as a whole as a cohesive team with representative depictions for all members within it. Which is fair since the art depictions of canon are already variable they are simply meant to capture a interpretation of the figure. So I’m not quite sure what all the kerfuffle is about.
Addressing the fact lastly that these are canon contests of which are for already defined character depictions. This is a contest to showcase talent and interpretation but yammering on about how it stifles creativity shows little thoughtfulness overall. If you are after a free for all of all sorts of design then I’m afraid Tuyet, Lariska, Orde, Zaria, Chiara, Nidhiki, Varian, GSB, and Marendar are your mix. The expectation to disregard what has been defined for the claimed “no opportunity for creativity” is quite mindless. As @SubParFauxPas indicated in the encapsulation of a wide variety of creative designs all of which are indeed Metru builds utilizing the root torso in question and most of its initial functions. And if people do not “care enough to enter” due to restrictions that is their call to make but expecting to alter precedent and rules and defined writing for the sheer sake of entries is not really a reasonable claim outside of personal opinion which is remedy by participation acknowledging said conditions or voting according to your own.
This would bring my main overview to a close. I will say attempting to define a rigid ratio of what is a build and isn’t is ironic in combination with the desire for custom torso builds which would contradict a set precedent of there being a “correct” way to such. Simply put, this whole portion makes little sense to play semantics endlessly when what it is, has been relatively clearly defined already by Greg, and the sets themselves.
What people get creative about and try to do on their own is up to them, there is creativity to be found within restrictions as seen in iBunny’s examples, and there have been fantastic 3D printed masks and spear heads already and I hope to see more amazing work in the future and possibly, just maybe, a tad less pointless arguments.
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tbf i think dag meant their construction, not the armor
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Shoulder armor, but they still do not have articulated shoulders.
The point is to look different? Cause everyone right now has been saying they should look as much like Iruini and Norik as possible.
Not if someone wants to build a custom torso. Why? Because they want to. As long as it fits the proportions and style, its no different than any of the other modifications people are doing. They all make changes to the build, most of which the Metru, Iruini, and Norik do not share in common.
Never said it was.
Again, more strawman.
You’re kind of missing the point of the discussion then. At the end of the day, the discussion is about what the rules will or will not allow. Arguing against custom builds being allowed is equivalent to arguing for their being banned in the final rulesets.
For everyone: Know that if that’s not your intent, make that very clearly known because we will be considering consistent argument against custom builds in these contests as equivalent to argument for banning them from the contest.
At the end of the day this Metru Build debate seems to be hiding a slightly darker undertone - whether or not it’s even worth it to have a Hagah Contest, if we’re going to be so restrictive in our rulesets to as essentially put you in the shoes of Lego designers with finite pieces. I, personally, err on the side of “If we don’t enable at least some level of creativity within the aesthetic requirements of the “Metru Build” then it could easily be more worthwhile to spend that time on a different character with more creative liberty and more use for an actual contest.”
But I digress.
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If that is the case, then I will take the L and concede that particular point.
I wasn’t talking about articulation there.
Reread Bunny’s post. He’s saying that the Metru build is diverse and flexible to the point where, even within the confines of a Hagah-style Metru build, you have a lot of room for creativity.
Except then it’s not a Metru build, and even if it were, it’d look noticeably different next to the other Hagah, and it wouldn’t look like a canister set, which is gonna be bad. Even if no rule is enforced, you’ll probably be shooting yourself in the foot by entering a custom torso. “Because they want to” isn’t a good enough reason by itself.
It’s very different. It’s an entirely different build.
I didn’t say you did. I was making a point.
Again, no strawmen are present.
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