BIONICLE G1 Canon Contests Discussion & Questions

Exactly, I think this is probably the mindset of most voters who hear “Hagah Canonization Contest” as well.

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But unlike the sets designers, we aren’t bound by budget and parts usage like the Hagah were. Using the ball joint shoulder mod doesn’t detract from the look too much, that’s partly why its so common. Feel free not to use it and/or vote against entries that do, but disallowing it seems unreasonable.

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Also I feel like a lot of us are making assumptions. I haven’t actually SEEN many people say ‘disallow’ or ‘ban’ something. Who here is actually trying to actively getting something banned right now? I am not in favor of a lot of stuff but I’m not trying to actively ban anything. Although I am trying to make it clear there are certain designs where if they are followed, I will not vote for.

Norik & Iruni and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Shoulders

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Greg specified that the Hagah were all Metru builds. This has no bearing on the shoulders, chest, arms, or legs, since those are clearly variable, as evidenced by Norik and Iruini.

The gear function’s part of the torso, and the shoulders are really a grey area. On one hand, the Hagah we already have use the original setup; on the other, if a poster wants to display their entry in a certain pose, they may need balljoints.

Yeah…that’s…the point…

At that point, you’re better off using a Metru torso.

This contest isn’t about raw creativity, it’s about creativity within the context of a specific character. If you don’t want to obey the existing limitations to canon, well, too bad. You probably won’t win anyway. And considering the versatility of the Metru build, creativity isn’t even a problem.

This, right here, is the important thing at the end of the day. If you really want a good Hagah entry that’s gonna get the most votes, it should look like an actual set. Artakha? Helryx? They’re not part of a Toa team. We don’t have sets representing other members of their matched set. The Hagah are an entirely different beast. They use an established build. You want a MOC that fits alongside them? Use the ■■■■ Metru build.

I don’t know if it’s accurate to say I’m trying to do something, and I certainly can’t speak for everyone here, but I’m personally on team “ban custom torsos.” I’m not usually a purist or anything, I could normally care less; but for the sake of canon and consistency, I’m 100% against any custom Hagah torsos, and I’ll at least place my votes against any that crop up.

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I think the Metru torso should be a requirement, so any torso that doesn’t use it should be banned. I don’t think the shoulder mod should be banned, though I will trend towards voting for entries without that mod.

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Alrighty, so for the past several days - even spanning to weeks the same issues have played out in a broken record like fashion. I have watched good portions of this take place and have been patient, waiting for it to burn out but for some inane reason we always end up returning back to the same points. Be it varied takes of Devil’s Advocates carrying vague points that function as moving targets or relying on semantics games solely during this all, this whole thing has become a muddled down fest of nonsense.

We shall start with referring back to @SubParFauxPas 's post the address of Greg’s quotes, in which the point of a Metru build was established, and as they said, cut and dry here. Focusing on the following statement they made afterwards is incredibly important as it too is what I was to refer to. A “Definition” of a Metru build or the “design” of one, that has been sitting in contention for some asinine reason is largely an issue equal to such that has been memed numerous times, and fairly so: “is this a man”?.
As iBunny went onto explain after the Greg quotes; we already have this “definition” as Norik and Iruni both deviated from the literal sets from which it was named in this case both the armor designs and arrangements were unique to them, however this as the cut and dry quote would indicate are Metru builds without any form of question to be had. Referring to what @Sharnak also mentions in relation to Pohatu and Onua are also important as this is a distinction related directly to the Metru build controversy and was summed up nicely in the first paragraph.

Moving from that; the color combinations discussion. As indicated between numerous members in canon(Toa of Fire being prime candidates) there is not a set metallic color allotted to any element and realistically no real reason to play a game of there having to be gold or silver only for the special metallic armor gifted to the Hagah. The most I’ve seen this point used for is some shoddily constructed strawman’s that accomplish very little in the grand scheme.

The point nestled in here on the distinctions of custom builds is also problematic. Try as they may I’m afraid no Cherry Poptart will end up being an actual Cherry. Equally here no custom build will be a metru torso per say, I believe the desire for them personally is short sighted as custom =/= better. The claim that it stifles creativity also is ironic in of itself as the means to be creative is to be able to take what is already and transform it as well, not rely solely on build techniques that may be comfortable to someone.
In the end, whether the contest allows it or not is fruits of another garden to have, for now it stands to point out it was previously indicated via TTV in a general overview for said contest that the art section would convert it back to an actual Metru torso regardless not class some brand new build technique as a Metru build. This contest is for giving named characters depictions not for canonizing build techniques.

The whole deliberation on the art contest baffles me. The purpose of it in the end is to be able to depict the Hagah as a whole as a cohesive team with representative depictions for all members within it. Which is fair since the art depictions of canon are already variable they are simply meant to capture a interpretation of the figure. So I’m not quite sure what all the kerfuffle is about.

Addressing the fact lastly that these are canon contests of which are for already defined character depictions. This is a contest to showcase talent and interpretation but yammering on about how it stifles creativity shows little thoughtfulness overall. If you are after a free for all of all sorts of design then I’m afraid Tuyet, Lariska, Orde, Zaria, Chiara, Nidhiki, Varian, GSB, and Marendar are your mix. The expectation to disregard what has been defined for the claimed “no opportunity for creativity” is quite mindless. As @SubParFauxPas indicated in the encapsulation of a wide variety of creative designs all of which are indeed Metru builds utilizing the root torso in question and most of its initial functions. And if people do not “care enough to enter” due to restrictions that is their call to make but expecting to alter precedent and rules and defined writing for the sheer sake of entries is not really a reasonable claim outside of personal opinion which is remedy by participation acknowledging said conditions or voting according to your own.

This would bring my main overview to a close. I will say attempting to define a rigid ratio of what is a build and isn’t is ironic in combination with the desire for custom torso builds which would contradict a set precedent of there being a “correct” way to such. Simply put, this whole portion makes little sense to play semantics endlessly when what it is, has been relatively clearly defined already by Greg, and the sets themselves.
What people get creative about and try to do on their own is up to them, there is creativity to be found within restrictions as seen in iBunny’s examples, and there have been fantastic 3D printed masks and spear heads already and I hope to see more amazing work in the future and possibly, just maybe, a tad less pointless arguments.

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tbf i think dag meant their construction, not the armor

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Shoulder armor, but they still do not have articulated shoulders.

The point is to look different? Cause everyone right now has been saying they should look as much like Iruini and Norik as possible.

Not if someone wants to build a custom torso. Why? Because they want to. As long as it fits the proportions and style, its no different than any of the other modifications people are doing. They all make changes to the build, most of which the Metru, Iruini, and Norik do not share in common.

Never said it was.

Again, more strawman.

You’re kind of missing the point of the discussion then. At the end of the day, the discussion is about what the rules will or will not allow. Arguing against custom builds being allowed is equivalent to arguing for their being banned in the final rulesets.

For everyone: Know that if that’s not your intent, make that very clearly known because we will be considering consistent argument against custom builds in these contests as equivalent to argument for banning them from the contest.

At the end of the day this Metru Build debate seems to be hiding a slightly darker undertone - whether or not it’s even worth it to have a Hagah Contest, if we’re going to be so restrictive in our rulesets to as essentially put you in the shoes of Lego designers with finite pieces. I, personally, err on the side of “If we don’t enable at least some level of creativity within the aesthetic requirements of the “Metru Build” then it could easily be more worthwhile to spend that time on a different character with more creative liberty and more use for an actual contest.”

But I digress.

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If that is the case, then I will take the L and concede that particular point.

I wasn’t talking about articulation there.

Reread Bunny’s post. He’s saying that the Metru build is diverse and flexible to the point where, even within the confines of a Hagah-style Metru build, you have a lot of room for creativity.

Except then it’s not a Metru build, and even if it were, it’d look noticeably different next to the other Hagah, and it wouldn’t look like a canister set, which is gonna be bad. Even if no rule is enforced, you’ll probably be shooting yourself in the foot by entering a custom torso. “Because they want to” isn’t a good enough reason by itself.

It’s very different. It’s an entirely different build.

I didn’t say you did. I was making a point.

Again, no strawmen are present.

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I think it’s important to remember, especially for you as a member of TTV, that there are a lot more voters in these contests than entrants. Giving people huge amounts of creative freedom in their entries primarily effects the smaller of those two groups, not the majority. For most people participating in this whole thing, finally getting a canon appearance for characters is the top priority, not expressing their creative freedom.

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No, I do understand. If anything judging by your statement,

Then know that I am in favor of allowing that freedom to occur, but I am also advising against it because although it COULD be allowed, I don’t want to see it. I’m for letting freedom occur, even the options I’m not in favor of.

I also fail to see how allowing more part usage has a weight on their canon value, so I don’t feel like this is necessarily a solid point.

Well I was, and have been since before you started participating in this discussion, so I have no idea why you decided to change the focus.

Again, you, like many other people have, are confusing a build looking good enough that most people would vote for it to letting it in at all. Yes, if the majority of people would only vote for entries that use the actual torso piece, entrants should probably go with that if they want to win, but my point has always been that their reasoning for not voting for custom builds is inconsistent.

So you were responding to a point that I, and I don’t think anyone else here right now, has made?

Sure, but at the end of the day if we make the contests so restrictive they don’t appeal to the people entering the contests, that’s also a failure. Arguably there are also plenty of people participating in the voting who would rather we have no canon appearances from these contests at all.

When it comes to the rules that we should be requiring for builders, I’m going to personally advocate that we keep things as open as possible while maintaining restrictions that fit canon.

Bionicle has never been 100% restricted to the appearance of existing parts, and I feel personally that requiring the Metru Torso be used when it’s been proven that you can make something with similar/the same proportions, ostensibly for the purpose of more armor/colour variation, I don’t have a huge issue with that.

That said, it’s also not my call.

The question is not about their canon value - the question is about their community value. Would you rather have a contest where you have full creative expression or would you rather us go through 3 months of talking about a comparatively limited contest before we get to the more fun characters.

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Purely out of curiosity, why does all this matter?

Use some basic logic: If the majority of people like or dislike custom torsos for the hagah, they will vote accordingly and that outcome will be the winning one. Our own personal opinions don’t really matter too much.

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I would say ‘more fun’ is an opinion. I think the Hagah are cool and I would like to see them.

Like Rigby noted, I misunderstood there. I saw the mention of other parts of the Hagah and thought it was for armor.

It’s not. It’s very straightforward. The Hagah should look like they fit with the rest of their team, of which we only have Norik and Iruini.

You were saying custom builds would allow for more creativity. I said that that doesn’t matter because this isn’t a creativity contest. Please don’t accuse me of strawmanning when I’ve done nothing remotely close to that.

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Most voters won’t read this topic and see everyone’s arguments. The rules should enforce canon facts we know and everything else should be up to the voters. I believe the Metru torso piece has been confirmed as canon, should not be up for debate, and therefore should be put in the rules so voters who haven’t read this topic aren’t misinformed.

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Thats what I’ve been trying to get at too. Let it happen, but if you don’t like it, don’t vote for it.