i’m starting to get the feeling that you’re not deciding the rules, but i’m not 100% certain
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Ah, I knew that, sorry I was unclear. Just trying to explain my position for later when the rules are getting finalized.
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People keep forgetting, so I have to keep reminding.
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I’ll give you the short version, despite being concise is one of my weaknesses.
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Custom builds are fine in my book.
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We’re making the canon appearance of the Hagah, not the sets and thus should not be limited as set designers in 04/05.
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That said, metru torsos aren’t that restrictive, you can still do creative things with them.
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Fans have a general consensus on the Hagah look like; most aren’t going to vote for something that deviates too much from Iruni’s and Norik’s design. “But what if someone does [insert crazy thing here]” are strawman arguments.
I feel like the Hagah debate has run it’s course. We keep making the same arguments over and over and again. Apologies if this comes across as rude, but since TTV (and many others) would like a break from the contests for the holidays, I don’t think it’s necessary to have the Hagah discussion for three months when most people in this topic have already made their positions clear.
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Oh so much this. Honestly I kinda just want TTV to lock the topic for at least a month or so.
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I’m quickly realizing how tiresome this discussion is.
To sum up a few of my thoughts:
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The Hagah are canonically Metru builds, and it’s redundant to even attempt to canonize anything but. There are plenty of other character contests down the road for characters we don’t already have a very solid idea of how they should look that are fair game for people to scratch their custom torso itch.
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The only valid argument there is for allowing it anyway is going on the assumption that there will be an art contest to fix it, and that in which case the moc won’t be the canon depiction, yet people still refer to Double’s Helryx and Wombat’s Artakha as the “canon models” and are what most people will build if they recreate them - bar the masks.
It would make everyone’s jobs easier if it didn’t need to be fixed to begin with. I also believe it shouldn’t fall on the artists’ to fix the design that didn’t want to comply with canon, nor is it fair to restrict the artists’ ‘creative freedom’, but not the builders’. -
And finally, there is next to no point to even using a custom torso, especially if they’re all just trying to emulate the Metru piece anyway - just use the Metru torso piece.
To me it just seems like a combination of people desperately wanting to leave a bigger mark on these character’s appearances than just their limbs, armour and masks and weapons, and clinging to the age old rhetoric of “custom = better”.
Again, this is a canon contest to decide the depiction of the Toa Hagah, not a some other moc or revamp contest, and I’d personally consider actively going against what canon details we already have for these characters for the sake of being ‘creative’ to be in bad faith, regardless of what is or isn’t explicitly allowed.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with someone building their own moc of the Hagah with a different torso construction, but this contest is not the place for it.
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I was gonna propose that, so let my start. Personally I care much more for fitting canon appearance that liberty in creation for the participants. To summarize my points of view:
- Art contest is the canon version, same as Helryx and Artakha, no matter if the winning MOC only use existing Lego parts. I the winning MOC use a Metru torso and don’t break any BS01 rule, then it could also become canon, but that is for a future discution.
- I’m in favor of having a MOC contest for the whole team, but I’m not against of having individual Toa contest, same with the art contest. Since I don’t think the Hagah are that interesting in design (and I don’t think they should), having a full team contest will save time. If someone want to create only one Toa, he/she could associate with other members to have the full team.
- Custom torsos are allowed, but Metru torso piece is adviced. Since the artwork will be canon, having a custom torso won’t matter that much. But custom torso shouldn’t have features that aren’t avalible in the Metru torso piece (multi color, extrange conection point to fit the armor, etc.) The idea is if someone want to replicate the MOC with a Metru torso piece, it will be an easy replacement. Also I will love to see a hunched Toa, and an inverted torso Toa, same as the Toa Nuva.
- 3D weapons and mask are allowed, but masks are place holder. About the mask I’m not sure the problem of having new unkwon mask shapes came from here, or if it is something BS01 stated. If the latest, no custom mask should be allowed.
- Art can alter the mask shape, if 3D printed mask are allowed. This is for avoid in the MOC contest the use of 3D printed mask for stand out for the rest of the entries.
- Art should recolour the mask to match the metallic armour if the MOC don’t do it. No other recolor are allowed.
I hope not forgeting any point
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Yes, they are. And we also… don’t know what that means. You say it means they must have identical torsos. I say it doesn’t. Why should your idea of what it means be more valid than mine?
When the winner gets sent to Greg, it will become canon. If it has a custom torso, it inherently means that that type of torso design is a variation of the metru build, just as rahkshi shins and Vahki leg forearms are a variation of the Metru build.
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I want them to look like Hagah based off of what we know as Hagah. Preferably like they’d come out of a canister to match better with Norik and Iruini. Custom torsos? Sure, not recommended tho.
Can you provide evidence to the contrary.
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Because we have previous evidence, i.e. Norik, Iruini, and the freaking Toa Metru. We have a total of 8 examples of what we know to be a Metru build, all with identical base torsos.
Again, the MOCs don’t become canon, currently.
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All this discussion about what is and what is not a Metru build remember me to this:
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I’d also like to state again that I would love to collaborate with someone else for the Hagah mocs. If you’re interested in working together please send me a message. I have a purist mindset and would like for them to look like canon canister sets
Alright, here’s my wishlist for the rules:
MOC contest:
- Separate MOC contests. I understand that this can lead to some issues, but they can be addressed by the art contest.
- Metru torso required. I believe this is the correct interpretation of the Greg quote, and the torso piece itself is actually quite versatile and it comes in all the right colors. The rules would be so much clearer if this piece was required rather than allowing custom torsos that can be easily replaced by the piece. Easier for entrants to know what’s allowed, easier to judge, complies with canon.
- Toa size/proportions required. I recognize that’s vague, but I think it has to be. Heights and proportions can vary, but no titans or Matoran.
- Mods to the Metru build, such as the popular shoulder mod, should be allowed.
- Shield piece not required; MOCs can be shieldless or have custom shields.
Art Contest:
- Group shot with all four (Norik and Iruini encouraged but not required)
- Rules about altering the entries to fit each other should wait until the MOC winners are known. For example, if two MOCs have the same mask, the art contest should be able to change one or both of them, but the art should not be able to change them if all MOCs have different masks.
- Require the shields in the Hagah’s metallic color. This means the artist is required to add, recolor, or reshape the MOC’s shield if necessary.
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If we’re giving summaries of our preferred rulesets, here are mine:
- Two-stage contest, as has been done for these last two (MOC, then Art)
- Individual MOC Contests
- Group shot Art Contest with Norik and Iruini required (if you don’t want to draw two more figures, just have them standing in the back row or something, or behind a rock)
- Art Contest requires “official” Rhotuka Launching Shield shape (I don’t care what the rules are for the MOC shield)
- 3d printed masks allowed
- MOC designers indicate in their entry if they are okay with the mask being changed in the Art Contest (some people are making a conscious decision for the mask, while others are just picking the only mask they have available in a certain colour)
- Metru torso encouraged, but not required (This “encouragement” would come in the form of extremely, extremely strict additional proportion rules for any custom built torsos)
- Any other build modifications are allowed (ball joints in the shoulders, custom limbs, etc.), so long as the proportions remain “reasonable”
- Art Contest cannot change metallic colours
- I kind of like the idea of allowing non-metallic masks in the MOC Contest, then recolouring them in the Art Contest
As for topics that haven’t really been discussed:
- Metallic armour can be distributed differently from on Norik or Iruini, but there should be rough upper and lower limits on total coverage
- Spears have limits on shaft length, but it’s a wide range (around 16-32 studs)
- Any Rhotuka colour allowed
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I pretty much already gave my ruleset, but I’ll elaborate on each:
- Moc contests for each Toa individually. This prevents the issue of “I like this bomonga but this kualus”. It should be less of an issue for the art, since they’re all based on the same mocs.
- Custom torsos are allowed. If one wins, it canonically becomes a variation of the metru build. If you don’t like custom torsos, don’t vote for them. I’m not sure if they should be redrawn in the art, but I would say no. However, I’m not as hard line against it.
- 3d weapons and masks are allowed. Any 3d masks would just be an unknown mask power. For example, they could be the shape of a mask of fire.
- Placeholder shield, or no shield, is allowed art must draw the rhotuka launching shield, however. This means you don’t have to paint pieces, or obtain a fairly rare piece.
- Art contest for all four together (norik and iruini optional but encouraged) this gives us a team shot. I would also say each of the four should be prominently displayed, enough that you can crop out a picture for the individual Toa for their pages.
- Art CANNOT alter the mask shape of the winning mocs, but is allowed to alter mettalic colours. I know that this is particularly controversial, but since I’m giving control of the metallic colours over to the artists, I wanted to give moccists something in return. It also allows for crazy metallic colours like a pink pouks without painting pieces. It also gives a chance for metallic balance, for those who care.
- Art can recolour the mask to match the metallic armour, but not to another colour (for example, if the winning gaaki moc has a Metru blue mask, you can recolour it to silver, but if it already has a silver mask, you can’t recolour it blue). This gives more mask options, without painting parts. Note that I wouldn’t require that the masks be mettalic, but I am open to debate there.
- Art cannot recolour non-mettalic parts to be mettalic, or vice versa. So, if the winning gaaki moc has blue shoulder pads, you cannot recolour them silver. The only exception is the mask, which can be recoloured to mettalic. This is, again, to give power to the moccists. Non mettalic shifts, like say changing the hand colors like Hoseryx did, would be left to ttv’s discretion.
I’ll also add that I like these additions.
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All the Hagah should be Hoseryx builds.
If they’re not Hoseryx builds, I refuse to acknowledge them as canon.
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One additional clarification for the artwork, and then I’m done.
While having a group shot and full artwork of the four Hagah would look nice on BS01 and ideal, five separate drawings is asking a lot on an artist, even if they draw each member on different layers. And that’s not including possible kanohi designs.
Only a single group shot of either the remaining four or all six Hagah should be required. Individual art of each member should be allowed but, for the artists’ sake, be optional. Besides, BS01 already crops some profile images from group photos, so it’s hardly unprecedented.
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I kinda figured that was a given. Yeah, one pic for all four/six/five. (Someone should draw all but iruini, to show the team after iruini quit)
Or have him off to the side, for symbolism and cropping sake
“Water. Earth. Ice. Stone. Fire is already canon. Wait… one’s missing…”
“That would be Air. He quit the team, my queen.”
Roodaka and Vakama discuss the canon, 2021.
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