I don’t think immoral masks work for Zaria. He’s tortured over his breaking of the Toa Code, he’s not proud of it. He wouldn’t take the killing of a Makuta as free license to break more of the Code.
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I have absolutely no intention of still beating the long dead “end the contests” horse, but since you brought that up, that’s not entirely true.
In polls with the preference system, I took the largest number, since I’m looking for just participation, not people who voted in all three preferences. What I did for the rounds with multiple polls (1st Round and Semifinals) was average all polls in that round together, since its a reasonable assumption that most people are voting in all of them, or at least more than one. This is raw data from the polls, and so it could be slightly skewed from possible dupe accounts, but I don’t think its enough to drastically change the results.
Also, just for completion, I think there was a TTV “end the contests” poll way early on (between Helryx and Artakha?), but I have been unable to find it.
I think this shows two things:
- Both graphs, but certainly more so with votes, show a slight decrease overtime in contest participation.
- Voter turnout for the MOD poll is far higher than with the Hagah on average, which occurred during that time. If the results of the MOD poll still showed a majority in favor of the contests, why are the people who voted there not voting in the actual contests?
EDIT: There is an error in the Entries graph, where the Hagah Art entries should be 24.
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Nitpick in your data, but you show there being less than 20 hagah art entries. There were 24, with 2 of those DQ’d. I’m sure it doesn’t affect your larger point, but double check your numbers.
source: the auditing experience will not let me forget
I don’t think allowing immoral masks works, but I can see an argument for moccists using this line of reasoning to use more grey area masks, like the Komau. That’d be pretty cool, IMO.
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Thanks for pointing that out. I started making this data while the Hagah Art portion was still going on, so I may have made that graph, then others entered that I didn’t catch. However, as you said, it doesn’t really affect the point I was making. But I can assure you that I double checked the numbers on votes.
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Here’s a thought. Orde can’t be canonized having a Sanok if his Sanok is an inorganic fan design. Unless people use the official Sanok mold for Orde (or a modified Metru/Mata head compatible version that looks identical), his mask would be labeled an unknown Kanohi. Of course the same would apply to the other fan designs for Inika/Mahri masks.
Like I said before though, if Orde ends up with a fan designed Sanok (which it seems he might), Greg could always be asked outside the contests to canonize the mask power.
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I’m presonally against recanonizing the inorganic shapes for the Inika mainly because Greg has been adament enough about them being the same as the organic ones, just not organic ya know.
I’m also not super fond of regional variants as they are really not necessary. However if a 3d print Sanok that has a different shape from the one released by LEGO then having it be a regional variant or a new mask is the way to go.
on the same but slightly different note, I wouldn’t mind the Suletu having its design sligthly altered for its inorganic mask as it has plenty of grey area surrounding it but I would like the mask to still be asymmetrical like the original Suletu piece even hints at. I’ll have to make a 3d model of that sometime… 
but to illustrate my point here is a sketch from another topic:
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I think a Sanok is perfect for Orde. With a Mask of Accuracy, he can use his mace to perfectly bash those filthy Zyglak brains out
On a more serious note, do we a have ruling for substituting Lariska’s teal? Teal has entered back into LEGO’s color palate but available technic/bionicle pieces are still somewhat limited. I have a dark green moc but I’m unsure if I’ll enter it in the official contest.
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It’s mostly true.
This shows a crazy degree of consistency (not parity of numbers) between those that enter MOCs and those that enter art. The numbers aren’t the same, and there are obviously reasons for that (context that needs to be considered, since graphs and data don’t always tell the full story), but this is still a really impressive retention rate.
Again, a very impressive graph that doesn’t tell the entire story, and you need to consider context for.
Helryx was incredibly hyped up and had a lot of attention directed toward. The MOC finals also may be skewed heavily by duplicate voters, but I don’t recall the final duplicate account tally or off-site vote brigade amount that affected that. In some of those later polls, Artakha voters are higher than Helryx. And the Hagah had over a dozen MOC polls that people were asked to vote in, and major delays without a reliable idea of when to anticipate their return could have easily caused a drop in retention.
In a world where there are no issues, no time delays, with characters that are broadcast well ahead of time and that people are excited to see? Retention very likely wouldn’t decrease. It could, but there would very likely be reasons behind it, as we see here. And as we look to work closer with other BIONICLE community groups to welcome their members onto the Boards to participate, I except it may very well go up. Might not, but it wouldn’t be a surprise. That is a good thing for the health of the contests.
So yeah, a slight decrease and not a major one is still really good retention. If our YouTube channel showed a “slight decrease” like this, we’d be really happy.
It was sent out to a lot of communities, but the bulk of responses still came after our video was made about it. Obviously, voting on a SurveyMonkey poll vs. a Boards poll has a different level of ease, and as a result far different levels of security. We’ve discussed this with MoD at length.
So yeah. Spirit of the letter, I suppose, but retention is really good and impressive. And it’s my sincere hope that it will get even better as we move forward.
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Perhaps I should rephrase. I saw more of a problem in your phrasing than what you said.
You downplayed the amount of votes MOD’s poll received. Sure, TTV’s video about the poll received more views than the poll itself recieved, but it still received more votes than the contests do on average. The only clear exception is the Helryx MOC Finals.
I didn’t mention the vote brigading for Helryx because I thought it was such common knowledge that I didn’t have to. Regardles of the reason for why it was so high, it’s an outlier. But even ignoring that, there is a noticeable, but still slight, decrease from Artakha to the Hagah. The only question is if that trend continues into future contests.
That’s indeed a possibility, but we probably won’t know for sure until more contests take place, to get more data. I was actually thinking about holding off showing this until after Tuyet at least to have that data as well, but since you brought up votes, I figured now would be fine. This will be interesting to return to once Tuyet is done.
I’m a bit confused. You first made the point that the MoD poll received the largest number of responses after your video on it, but then you say it was so high partly because it was spread to other communities, as if fans don’t spread the TTV contests to other communities? The point about SurveyMonkey, though, is totally valid, and I’m aware of it from the TTV/MoD discussion. That again ties into the question of if the voting requirements are too strict, but that’s a whole other can of worms.
You haven’t explicitly said this, but the tone I’m getting is that you’re shrugging this off as unimportant. To be clear, I did not post this with the intention of “See? Less people are voting in the contests. We should end them,” but rather just something for TTV to be aware of going forward.
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Not a downplay. The point was that their poll, despite the scale it was at, had a difficult time accruing responses due to its nature as a poll and not a contest itself.
See, you assume a tone in what I’m saying, but you just “assume everyone knows the context.” If they did, then we wouldn’t be talking about this. Ignoring the context in regards to data is neglecting it at best and misusing it at worst. You can’t ignore context.
Also, again, you keep saying slight. And this is all keeping in mind that the Hagah contest was wrought with issues.
I certainly believe you’re misunderstanding, but I’m not sure if you’re trying to find issue with my statements or if I’m not properly conveying them. But to summarize, my point was that polls/surveys have a difficult time getting feedback and responses, while contests usually don’t. That was the point. And using MoD’s poll data is fine, but again there are a lot of circumstances and context as to why it got high numbers.
We’ll likely continue discussing the matter of the voting requirements with MoD, but they’re the way they are for security. Fraudulent voting shot down dramatically after changes were instituted. Is it impossible to vote fraudulently now? No, there are still ways around it (like anything), but it’s a huge time commitment for someone just trying to skew results. The whole point was to cater it to those that are invested in the contests, and so would see the importance of committing the time to get to trust level 1.
You’re reading the tone into it, which really isn’t helpful. All you’ve posted reaffirms what our understanding of the contests is, while also leaving out important context during a discussion of it. I don’t think you’re doing it intentionally, but this is how misunderstandings happen and how rumors get out of hand.
One of the reasons I garnered a reputation for hating red axles and blue pins is because I kept mentioning them as a possible con in any review they’d pop up in. And I kept mentioning them because I assumed that people wouldn’t watch every video back-to-back. But a lot of people did, so they heard me mention it a lot. I still maintain having done that because that way, if someone is just looking for one review, they still have everything I would consider bringing up, because I didn’t assume they had seen another video where I mentioned it.
Don’t assume. Don’t ignore context.
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I have a question regarding Chiara’s spear. My entry has a double-ended javelin, that according to Wikipedia is a kind of spear. However, double-ended spears are not precisely common, even javelins aren’t double-ended to begin with, so my question is the following: Does Chiara’s spear need to have just one end, or there’s no need to change my MOC’s weapon?
Thanks in anticipation
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We’re not defining that for her contest. We’re leaving it up to entrants and voters, since spears and staffs in BIONICLE have a large variety of appearances and there is no well-defined constant. That’d be acceptable.
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just for the record that is a really cool moc, and i look forward to voting for it in 2045 or whenever that happens
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Yeah I’m not gonna pretend I’m not. I’m SUPER excited to finally see Nidhiki in his full Toa glory. Hopefully I have made a Nidhiki that the community likes but if not, I just hope the winning entry is incredibly well thought out and tries to stick with the known lore. Even if it isn’t, I’ll still probably be ok with it.
I used to think a Metru build was the way to go, but working on a custom body Tuyet and Dume really made me rethink my stance.
Now I really hope a non-Metru build wins, as there’s so many ideas and ways to build a Nidhiki that looks incredible and still fits with Lhikan while not using the Metru torso.
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I was responding to you. At the very least, I assumed you knew the context for probably why the Helryx MOC Finals were high, which isn’t unwarranted, yes?
There is a decrease (whether you want to call it slight or not, not sure why you wouldn’t, though). Whether those issues are the reason why there’s a decrease is simply conjecture. I wasn’t ignoring context, I was simply interpreting the data as it was and didn’t say anything more to not accidently go beyond what the data alone suggests.
If instead of asking:
Had I just assumed it was because the Hagah had issues, that would be putting bias on the data.
Again, I’m probably misunderstanding, but wouldn’t that suggest the contest voter participation should’ve been higher than that of the MoD survey? If that’s case, that doesn’t at all explain why MoD is much higher.
You have to see my point of view. I spent time to create these charts during my free time, presented them as objectively as possible, and the response has been “you’re ignoring context,” which isn’t helpful.
By “don’t ignore context,” you mean simply chalk up the decrease from the Hagah to its issues, but without anything to prove that, its an assumption. So do I not ignore context, or not assume?
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We’re not having a private conversation. It’s very public, and leaving these conclusions uncontested leaves the great deal of spectators and possible participants to come to those same conclusions, and then the reality of the situation gets out of hand. Every time we engage in a conversation like this, it has to be kept in mind.
Again, as I said earlier, MoD’s survey is much simpler and easier to respond to than a Boards poll. And my point in mentioning views was that despite the video we made getting around 2k views by the end of the survey, it still only got slightly less or half of that in legitimate responses. Meanwhile, contests have had either a relatively consistent turnout since the initial survey to start the contests on the boards, or a higher one.
I see your point of view, it’s what we’ve been doing for the last two years. Running these in our free time and even trying to when we aren’t free. And it’s been very stressful, and we’ve had data be interpreted without considering additional context used to paint us and situations in a poor light. I appreciate the work you did, but I’m just trying to make some things clear before it’s misunderstood, misinterpreted, or misused.
You’re taking one part of my post to use it to respond to another part of my post addressing something entirely different, and/or to make some sort of point to discredit what I’m saying. This is exhausting.
I’m not sure what you’re looking for here at this point, but I don’t really have anything else to address at this time.
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Don’t take this to mean I’m necessarily arguing against or trying to disprove a point, but I always try to point out potential logical faults when possible.
Is MoD’s survey really easier to respond to than a Boards poll? It had several questions that required careful reading and fill in the blank responses for some portions. A poll – especially one in the vein of “Continue contest?” – generally has between 1-3 questions and likewise only ever requires ticking a box to indicate one’s preference.
Regarding the video getting 2k views versus the survey getting 1k responses (and it should be noted, it did get 2k responses when you include illegitimate responses, which weren’t all necessarily duplicates but also just troll answers), it should be taken into account that YouTube counts total views, not just unique viewers. I personally accessed the video numerous times, and others will without a doubt concur with me. It may even be fair to say that the video only received about half as many unique views as it did overall views.
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Also with regards to the MOD poll, that was highly publicized throughout the community, especially on the Discord end. Unless I’m mistaken, TTV’s main Discord presence is Patreon-only. I think that the other community institutions like Mask of Destiny and BS01 need to put as much work into the promotion of the contests as they did into the promotion of the contest poll, and that would significantly increase retention.
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Agreed there, especially on the BS01 front given they’re the other driving force in the fandom that provides legitimacy to the contests.
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I’ve pitched a “polls open! vote now!” banner to BS01 before, but I’m not sure if it will be implemented. It’s not exactly something I can sandbox.
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