Thanks for the summary
I feel like these would ocwrcomplicate the voting process. What would be the benefit of implementing these kinds of systems?
Question that directly affects less than 20 people, but since you, jerm, listened through, and I won’t have the time to for a couple days:
Can you elaborate on what the said about auditing in specific? I know it was likely non-conclusive, but nonetheless. Would be helpful to know how the role will evolve.
The proposed benefits would be that people can participate without being forced to use any specific website. It seems like this idea was primarily conceived with consideration towards those who have been banned from TTV, but it would also apply to anyone who simply prefers another site.
From what I understand, though, the voting process wouldn’t change much with either proposal. Not for voters, at least. The polls would still be set up more or less the same, maybe just on different sites. All entries would still be consolidated into one pool; it’s not like the Makuta Contest, where each site ran their own polls and produced their own finalist.
Of course, anyone can only still vote once. One of the criteria for implementing the applet system, rather than just keeping it on TTV, is a way to ensure that each community member can only vote once, regardless of what site they do it on.
It had less to do with the auditing itself, and more to do with how to determine what rules are “auditable”. A large portion of the later parts of the talk were similar to recent discussions here, trying to figure out what quotes should be mandated vs. “suggested”. No specific points were covered in much detail, but it was a more general discussion.
The most notable proposal in this regard was the idea of the auditors having a “grading sheet” of canon criteria, with each entry only needing to meet a certain amount of “points” on the sheet.
Thank you for that summary my good fellow.
I wonder if having more auditors from a mixture of sites would help quell peoples complaints about a lack of transparency, if each group has representatives in the process?
I haven’t been following closely so this idea may be way off.
Ok I’m not argue for or against these arguements below, I’m just going to bring up quotes.
As you can see above, Greg has stated that the Turaga didn’t tell the Matoran the story of Tuyet (and probably Nidhiki since the answer applies to him). This combined with Matoro being told about the Mask of Intangibility means Matoro was told of the mask, not Tuyet. This is backed up by the answer that Matoro wouldn’t know who she was, as all he was told was what the Turaga wanted to be known.
I read it that way as well, which is why I came to my conclusion.
Depends on if Dume tore down the Nidhiki and Tuyet statues after their betrayals. Seems pretty in character to me. Also probably not a good idea to have up statues of a Serial Killer and a Traitor if you want Toa to be trusted.
Ok so this is analysis of current info, as you do have a point on the Redial thing.
The above quote is where stuff like Axonn, Sidorak, Kikanalo, Krekka, Norik, Teridax and Kualus using Nuva armor creates a Grey area.
Norik and Kualus got it as ceremonial armor so it has to have existed before that point as Toa armor. As pointed out in the above discussion, stuff like Nui Jaga stingers as armor show that pieces used on Toa and non Toa don’t mean its the same thing. Like Teridax doesn’t have 2 Avokiis for hands.
Now the Matoro recognizing it and Reidak not is a question of how widespread the armor was.
Now take everything I said above and throw in into the Great Furnace, as Reidak was in the same room as the Toa Mangai. I honestly forgot he was there but he was. So that basically means he either didn’t see Tuyet or the armor isn’t Nuva.
I now have to go completely redesign my Tuyet entry and pray that the contest doesn’t start for a month or 2.
However, there is one last thing I want to say. Ruling out all other options, this makes me personally think Tuyet has armor similar to Lesovikk or Jovan. Just to reiterate, in my opinion. Not saying you have to agree or mandate it, just what I’ve personally gotten from eliminating other options.
Do you guys think they’ll allow corpse Tuyet for the contest?/s
This Nuva armor thing seems like a really pedantic nitpick to me. BIONICLE has and has always had a limited palette of parts to use, and the shapes we see on the sets don’t necessarily reflect what the characters see in the world of the story. Just because Reidak didn’t recognize the Toa Nuva doesn’t mean Tuyet can’t or shouldn’t use the nuva chestplate piece on her model, because the Toa Nuva’s appearances are more than just their chestplates, and because they likely would have subtly different shaping or morphs in the actual story. I don’t want to be too concrete with what I mean on that latter point because that would obscure it. What I mean is something along the lines of “if Toa Kualus and 2003 Toa Kopaka Nuva stood next to each other, a Matoran probably would not go ‘wow, they’re wearing the same armor!’” This goes doubly for characters like Axonn, who is not a Toa.
To continue on this, a “Toa” is just a recognizable shape to many in the Matoran universe. You know one when you see one, especially because Matoro, of all of the Mata Nui Matoran, is very likely to have been exposed to images of other Toa in his time. We don’t need to make Tuyet resemble the Toa Nuva in any capacity at all, because, most of the time, a seven-foot, brightly-colored, mask-wearing being with a tool is probably a Toa. The only time characters have ever gotten confused about this in-lore as far as I remember was the Piraka deceiving the Matoran of Voya Nui, who still had their doubts because the Piraka looked very strange compared to Toa.
All of this is to say that just because Matoro recognized Tuyet as a Toa does not mean that she necessarily is familiar in appearance to him, or that he has ever seen an image of her before. Mechronus, you can feel free to build your Tuyet however you like, but posting your “findings” on the topic here is, to put it bluntly and in my opinion, derailing the conversation to talk instead about very minor and inconsequential details. The world of BIONICLE does not need rigid logic applied to it to determine the appearance of a character, and it wouldn’t hold up under rigid logic and scrutiny anyhow. The world is not constructed to meet standards of logic that we would apply.
Auditors from multiple sites, IMO, is a great idea, but only if all of them can have a central hub to communicate. Having multiple “teams” handling different entries on different sites could lead to discrepancies.
This is beyond the scope of the canon contest discussion, but maybe just throwing together an auditor discord could be a good idea, IF multiple sites end up having auditor teams.
This is a question of process that, again, only affects less than 20 of us currently, lol. I’m sure once tuyet starts up, we’ll have a clearer idea. Thanks for the summary, Jerm.
I look at armor in Bionicle this way: It’s the whole of the character not any one individual piece. The Hagah is a special case because they have had armor pieces swapped. However the designs of the armor pieces are still canon for example Axonn still have that indent from the nuva chestplate on his torso while its not the exact armor piece. Similarly Hydraxon’s chest has the same details as a Piraka foot but isn’t one. I don’t know if any of this make sense but that’s how I think at least.
This was brought up, albeit briefly, during the talk. As you said, it was agreed that, if auditing were to be done on other sites, the rules would have to be made very clear. However, it never really progressed beyond that obvious statement, and the idea of just keeping the TTV team was also mentioned.
This actually led me to a realization of why it’s good that we canonize art results rather than MOCs. The actual LEGO builds are “extrusions” of a pure, immaculately canonical design into our real world. Hydraxon’s chest uses the same piece as the two-toed Piraka foot in real life, but, in BIONICLE, it may only superficially resemble it. The actual chestplate could vary in any number of ways. Hydraxon is actually a great example of this to talk about, because the box artists chose to take a liberty with his CGI design that I don’t think any other set has exhibited, and it’s on his chestplate.
The winners of each contest being art rather than MOCs allows us to have a degree of interpretation and control come into play when we put these designs up on our shelves. As it is, Mister-N’s Helryx and Perp’s Artakha and SpecterL’s Toa Hagah are the “immaculately canon” versions of these characters, and the actual winning MOCs are merely interpretations, imperfect translations of the canon into our world. Of course, as winners, they will receive a degree of prestige, but they’re not any more canon than a MOC I make or a MOC you make, as long as they’re based on the winning art piece. All MOC interpretations of these designs are equally valid canonically. (Of course, I don’t intend to place a value judgment on being canon! Canon is as important to you as you want. It doesn’t need to be a yardstick to measure the quality of a fan work by.)
Is there somethig wrong with people voting on TTV forums? why would we need a new site to hold the vote?
To each their own, I guess. I mean alot of canon media has shown the toys as is inuniverse so while all armor pieces aren’t meant to be the same pieces as another’s body parts. The builds are all still a canon artsyle. Maybe not the ones from these modern contest but that doesn’t decanonize any previous designs.
The only thing about the sets and previous G1 winners, we can for sure say is noncanon is their scale. However the Miramax trilogy designs are just as canon. I don’t think they lend as well to LEGO builds though.
The biggest problem brought forth in the talks is that it requires a TTV account. With the current voting process, this effectively prevents voting for anyone who has been banned, or who simply doesn’t want to spend 30 minutes to get access to voting for the rest of the contests.
It wouldn’t be a new site.
I’m not very knowledgeable on the technical side of how this would be done, but the idea is that an “applet” would be developed that could be hosted by any site that wants to be involved, and it would compile the votes from all the sites before calculating the winner.
It is important to note that a critical function of this “applet” would be to detect if the same person is voting on multiple sites, and prevent it. The system will not be implemented if this cannot be done.
what about the toa hordika’s tools/arms
By the word of Greg himself: its just an artistic interpretation of the same thing.
but you could argue that because most media depicts the Hordika dual wielding that may be more canon
Firstly, I wanna start off with this:
I managed to save 90% of the design so I’m pretty happy.
Honestly I was going to get into a whole thing about about part usage but I’m just tired of this armor conversation since no one’s offered their armor ideas, like I asked in the first post:
Additionally, I’ve always said this is my opinion on why I think her armor is (currently) type. I’ve never said I want it to be Nuva or Inika/Mahri mandated, only backed up my opinion when challenged on it. When I found out Nuva was wrong, I changed it to Mahri/Inika. Plus when people told me to not start another conversation on this, I agreed and posted my quotes to the correct channel. My only responses were to clarify my opinion, provide an addendum and then the last post was to show that my opinion was ultimately wrong. I stayed away from discussing this because I had already stated my opinion and had nothing else to offer besides clarification. In fact let’s look at the last thing I said in the first post:
This wasn’t meant to spark a huge debate over my opinion of her Armor but a discussion of what kinds of armor people were using or planning on using.
As I said above, I just said my opinion and then left. I can’t control if people want to discuss something further, I can only clarify my opinion and change it if I’m wrong. Also this wasn’t a “finding” thing.
This was known information that I was addressing my opinion on and asking to see what everyone else was planning on doing. Also when I “find” stuff I try to make sure it’s either relevant or a humorous add on to an update on my quote digging. But if you really don’t like that kind of stuff then fine, I’ll save it for Quote Dump pages. (Not mad, just not wanting anymore arguements. Plus it is kinda off topic so I agree.)
In the end, it seems like no one read my original post since if they did, they would have told me what their ideas for her armor was instead of having a huge debate on why having the opinion of “Tuyet with Nuva Armor because I thought Matoro saw it” was apparently the wrong one (Funny enough it was (In my opinion) but still). And people let’s just let this argument die since there’s no canon answer one way or the other for if she had Nuva armor or not. Besides, do we really want Greg to fully canonized what armor she had?
Anyways, I’ll be finishing up the Canon Quotes this weekend then I’m taking a break offline to get these new renders done.
Edit: Added clarification on finding quotes.
Yo, I like your interpretation, man. Only thing I’d change about the Mata Blue variant would be to either make her hands Mata Blue or her feet Metru Blue to give her limbs a balanced color scheme. You know, have her feet and hands be the same color. Nice moc, bro!
Thanks! Here’s a comparison of old and new:
I changed the design after the whole “Reidak being in the room with Tuyet but not recognizing Nuva armor thing” since I personally saw that as either him being blind or her not having Nuva. I love how it turned out so it’s ok in the end.
That’s a great idea, thanks!
Edit: Formating isn’t working, sorry