BIONICLE G1 Canon Contests Discussion & Questions

I’m not sure where the rules specifically stand on Shapeways and other sites that sell 3D parts, so perhaps it would be good to have the exact stipulations clarified. Do 3D parts not only have to have their models freely available, but also not be sold on the market?

But for the time being, maybe I can offer some insight, as this rule was at least partially derived from a suggestion that I and other people made. Because 3D parts are such a unique subset of LEGO pieces, in that they are designed and sold not by a company, but by individuals, it becomes necessary in an environment like this (where the use of parts is for a contest) to avoid having anyone be in complete control of certain materials.

Not to sound overly negative, but the possibility exists that–if the rule about 3D parts being free were not in place–creators who see these contests as a way to make money could raise their prices beyond acceptable levels, or could impose certain other restrictions on them that make it unfair for some participants. This is why there was some initial backlash to @MaskMaker’s decision to reverse his initial choice in disallowing his creations–the judges, rightfully so, do not want a small group of people exercising unlimited control over the parts that they provide for this contest, because that makes things unfair.

I’m not sure exactly what their final verdict on Shapeways and other sites will be, but if I could offer a potential solution: I don’t believe it would be a violation of contest rules if you wanted to create a set of models specifically to release freely for the contests, while keeping your other models open for purchasing, but ineligible for the contests (mods, please let me know if this is, in fact, a violation).

The ultimate fact of the matter is that 3D parts present a very complicated issue that needs to be examined closely, in order to ensure that the rules allow both for fairness and creative license…

1 Like

I agree that it’s a complex situation. TBH I think I would be happy enough if I was just able to enter my masks into the mask design portion of the competition and leapfrog the issue, but it seems that only 2D drawings are being accepted for that. That way I could also enter my toa Hagah MOCs without their masks in the first part of the competition. I think it wouldn’t even hurt to separate the mask and weapon designs into two different contests.

3 Likes

I believe a decision is still pending on 3D art for the masks, so you may still get the chance to enter them as 3D art. And of course, even if your masks aren’t part of the contests, you can still submit the bodies of your Toa Hagah regardless.

1 Like

Again, I don’t understand why there’s been such a weird “this type of art/MOC/design for this part of contest” restriction. It makes more sense to me to let all types of content (that is allowed within the contest boundaries) be allowed for all the competitions.

In any case, I fully agree with the comments from @00dudeoo about 3D designs - the only concern I can see with that is that we end up with officially canon masks that you have to pay a fan to buy and idk if there are legal issues with that or not (although I doubt it for the reasons on contest copyright I discussed earlier in the topic).

By the way, I remember seeing those Hagah designs years ago and loving them, they’d all have my vote (except maybe Pouks, not sure if that design matches what we know the mask of emulation to look like.) Those Kanohi designs all look like they fit not just Bionicle, but the specific era the Hagah come from. I’d be disappointed if they couldn’t be entered (unless of course it was your wish not to.)

1 Like

What about the color used for Thornrax’s bones?

@MetaRayMills, I agree to an extent. All of the Hagah should definitely have metallic armor and masks, but that’s the only part that needs to be uniform. Onua is once sited as removing his Nuva armor, which I presume would only be metallic parts. So yes, the Hagah should have ‘uniform armor’, but not necessarily uniform bodies.

@Toa-of-Snow, I second all of you thoughts on artwork.

@Wolk, Huh, that’s really cool. Now I sot of want to build an entire Bomunga MOC around those watch pieces.

1 Like

That would be Light Azure. I wouldn’t classify that as a ‘blue-green’ as there doesn’t seem to be any green in it at all.


As you can see, Teal is much more greenish.

2 Likes

I’ll be honest, I think the rule about the files needing to be free is perfectly fair.

Unless someone has access to a 3D printer at a local library or college (which not everyone does, certainly in the UK that’s extremely rare) the cost of getting masks 3D printed by other services is expensive. From memory, Shapeways is a base minimum of £7 without markup, with marked-up masks ranging £12 to £25. For the latter price, you could buy actual collector’s items like a set of copper masks, a gold Kraahkan, or even a trans-light blue Kaukau. Those are official, moderately-uncommon items that carry value for a collector, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. Ordinary masks range from £0.50 to £5, so there’s a big difference there.

I have absolutely nothing against people making money from their mask designs in general, and would generally encourage people to ensure they’re being paid for their work. But to me, it wouldn’t be right for an entry using such a mask to win any of these contests. At the end of the day, the contest then becomes an ad for the fan whose masks are used, which is the kind of cynicism this contest should be free of. The contests and winning designs should be as accessible as possible.

I don’t believe you personally would abuse that position, but to me it feels like a better idea not to give anyone else the chance to. But hey, not up to me, just my hastily-scrawled two cents.

10 Likes

So what differences does it make when almost nobody has access to a 3D Printer anyways? Most will still have to buy them via Shapeways. By “forcing” him to upload his files, the Seller/3D Modeler just runs the risk of copycats, who try to sell the same 3D prints too. I dont think most Artist will offer Parts with that risk in mind and we just wouldve less desgins available.
And for new Maks we need new Designs. The Possibility is, that People start drawing them. This Method is even less accessible. Even if the Drawn Masks are 3D-modeled and put up on Shapeways, you would have to buy them.

3 Likes

That’s a fair point. I would first just say that nobody is being forced to enter their masks or not, as has already been demonstrated.

I would still come back to price though. If you have access to the files then there’s a chance you can get it done super cheaply if you have access to a 3D printer or at an ok cost (relative to official masks) via Shapeways. But £15, £20, £25 for a mask is a lot of money, and should an expensive mask become “canon”, that means it essentially becomes a much more expensive exercise for anyone who wants to replicate. I mean, MOCcing is always going to come at cost, but out of fairness it’s better to make things as accessible as possible. £25 for a mask is not accessible.

It’s also difficult when the people providing the service are members of the community. You immediately then have parties who would directly benefit from the outcome of the competition, which is murky territory.

But on the subject of 3D artists not offering their masks for use because of fear of copycats, that’s already proven not to be true. Galva and KhingK both offer loads of mask files absolutely free on their Thingiverse pages. Between them, you can download and print the Masks of Psychometry, Creation, Sensory Aptitude, Emulation, Conjuring, Rahi Control, Growth, Aging, Elemental Energy and a ton more, not to mention Makuta variants and inorganic versions of the Inika masks. I’m sure more people are offering/will offer a similar service, I know of at least one other modeller who intends to do the same. So I understand the concern but it’s already a moot point, plenty of masks are already being offered as free files (thus minimising printing costs).

3 Likes

Darn. I was hoping to use your Mask of Rahi Control in the contest. [quote=“00dudeoo, post:255, topic:51546”]
For example, I’ve had several people approach me about using my toa Hagah masks (pictured below), but in order to do that I would need to forfeit selling their masks on my Shapeways, which I have been doing for years. This is a silly requirement in my opinion, because even real Lego pieces cost money. Even if I made the 3D model free, that still requires someone to purchase a 3D printer and filament. Having the model for sale on Shapeways is simply providing that service for a price which actually allows access to the models for more people who can’t afford their own 3D printer.
[/quote]

It would make things a little more accessible for some people though. For example, I already have a 3-D printer and I will upgrade to a resin printer in the coming months. Allowing both would provide a balance for people who couldn’t spend as much money on lego pieces and 3-D printed stuff, as well as those who have the resources to 3-D print your own stuff.

Not sure how I feel about this. Not only would it cut your market in the long term, but the only weight you would have is that the original model was made by you. I wasn’t planning to enter Kualus and Pouks, especially since mine are literally yours except Kualus has a Kopaka '08 blade, but I would like to see your versions in the contest. Your Mask of Rahi Control remains my favorite version of the mask, to the point of which I intend to stick with it no matter the results, and you’ve been one of my favorite 3-D modelers for a very long time.

3 Likes

While I’m uncertain if the file itself should be or not, I definitely agree with that the most important part is that the design itself is explictely stated, being the canon representation, as fair game for anyone to use, be it in a artwork, a comic, a game or a 3D model. No one should have any basis to stand on that allows them to attempt to cherry-pick who can and cannot use the canon design.

6 Likes

In response to the whole file-being-creative-commons thing, this is a frontier of digital artwork that’s still in debate everywhere. To try to present it in a more tangible example, let’s say you create a painting and sell it to someone. Only you can recreate that painting, without resorting to photocopiers and the like. In a digital environment, that’s completely removed; if you give someone the original file, that can now (essentially) be copied infinitely. It’s all but completely lost as a product you can sell, because anyone with an understanding of stl files can now replicate it. Perfectly.

On the topic of 3d being cut out of the art side of the contest, I’m completely in agreement with Galva. In the past year I’ve been belittled for my work in Blender, because “it’s on a computer, it’s not really 3d,” I’ve been excluded because my work is digital rather than physical, I’ve had it dismissed because it’s “just” computer stuff. I admit that this was all in an environment much more opposed to computers than most, especially here, but the example still applies. Modelling requires a different skillset to drawing, and often a different mindset, but is arguably even more accessible to those with little resources. Everything I’ve learned about modelling has been on a free, open-source software, and from discussion and online tutorials. All of which can be replicated.

I think excluding it would be a mistake, and would ostracize members of the community for no valid discernable reason.

2 Likes

Hey everyone, apologies for the radio silence. Been a busy, busy week and it isn’t gonna let up.

I have an update for everyone, so please read this all the way through. We’ve spent a healthy amount of time discussing the posts made over the last few days about a handful of different topics and potential rule changes.

##2D art vs. 3D art

After mulling this over for a while, we agree that there isn’t a good reason to exclude 3D art from the second half of any character contests. As such, we’re gonna make a modification to the rule to allow for 3D models for the artwork half of things. However, as to not cause a redundancy, the model files will need to be made public at the time of entry on the entry post.

We actually had intended to go over this earlier, but never had the chance. We appreciate the perspectives everyone brought to the table.

##Instructions

Something that has been brought to us by a few community heads and members here have been the topic of instructions. After discussing it, we won’t be forcing anyone to make a full instruction booklet for their entry. However, at the time of entry, you must enter with a minimum of three (3) breakdown photos of the character to allow the inner-workings to be deciphered.

The reasons for this are two-fold. One, it allows for individuals looking to add the winning model to their own collection a better way to set about that goal, and two, it works to prevent individuals from adding 3D pieces to the MOC that would break the rules on 3D printed pieces. For instance, if it’s a piece that must be there or the MOC is impossible, it then forces people to need that part to make the characters very structure.

#LEGO part compatibility

Something else that has been brought up to us has been the matter of LEGO compatibility. That being the case, any 3D model made for a character must have a minimum of one (1) point of compatibility in order to work with LEGO pieces.

##Contemporary war weapons

We want to add this in while we have a chance, but basically no war weapons. So if you’re attempting to canonize a tank or an AK-47, you will be asked to remove it. If you refuse, the entry will be disqualified until the changes are made.

And those are the updates. Now, a response to a new concept.

First, thank you for giving your thoughts and perspective on the matter. This wasn’t an idea we had heard yet, so it’s greatly appreciated.

Second, we gave this a lot of serious thought. It is a reasonable idea and we do like it. The problem is we can’t facilitate this solution because it runs in direct contrast with the goal of accessibility. Allow me to explain.

We at TTV do not care if someone sells masks. We actually highly encourage it and we think it’s great that the BIONICLE community has an active fan economy. We want to support it as much as possible.

Unfortunately, it was made clear by the responses we received in the poll topic that ran for over a month, and the many individuals voicing their concerns elsewhere (BZPower’s Discord Server, Litestone Studios Discord Server, our own Patreon server, and the YouTube comments sections for the videos we released discussing the contest poll) that people stood in staunch opposition of the contests if they allowed for an unfettered method for people to profit off of the contests provided they won them.

That being the case, we worked hard to make sure we allowed 3D printed pieces at all. We worked toward a compromise with BS01 and through our various conversations with them, other community heads, and RSG, we came to the rule we have today.

Now, to clarify, our rule is that you must release the file to the public at the time of entry. This is to satisfy that concern and allows for people to access the models without needing to buy it. However, at no point did we ever suggest that people are not allowed to put the files and the models up for sale on Shapeways/Thingiverse.

We can not control what you do with the model outside of these contests. If you want to sell them, we can not stop you. However, if you want to use them on your entry, or if someone else wants to, then the file has to be made public here when your entry is entered.

We hope that clears some things up, and we’ll do our best to answer any other questions and concerns. Thank you, everyone.

14 Likes

For real though, I am very thankful to all of you for the continued discourse on all of these subjects. As stated in the first post, having these rules be public and visible for like a month and a half before the first contest’s start date has helped a lot when it comes to gathering additional feedback. It’s been immensely helpful in making revisions, corrections, and additions, and we urge you all to keep it coming so we can make these the best they can be.

14 Likes

Could you define “3D art”? Whats the difference between an LDD/Stud.io entry and 3D art?

Also is it about full depiction or just the Kanohi?

Does alternatively an LDD file with a few missing parts (since they don’t exist in LDD) + a parts list also work? Could get ugly with larger MOCs otherwise regarding the amount of pictures needed.

Also on that note - what’s the rule regarding Lego pieces that aren’t actually connected, but only securely wedged/held in place in a build (without causing damage to the parts)?

Custom model. If it’s a model created in LDD/Stud.io, it will be considered a MOC and not applicable for the art portion. So what we’re talking about is stuff like Blender.

Allow to me do a better job of clarifying.

When we think of 3D art, we’re thinking of the kind of material produced by folks such as Populus or Vrahno. Custom models meant to represent particular models. But again, it’s what we think of. I’m not totally sure what folks such as Galva would do. I’m somewhat familiar with their works, but I don’t know the full extent of how they’re rendered.

It’s difficult to deal with, because if we allow Stud.io entries in the art portion, they’d have to essentially only be reproductions of the winning MOC with just a new mask (and potentially a new weapon). And with Stud.io, unless you’re rendering out the model and putting that on a new background later, it’s just the model floating in the void, which is something that we’d ideally like to avoid.

Does any of that make sense? It’s not an easy situation, but we’re trying to eliminate any loop holes to try and streamline this where possible. So that’s the current stance, though we’re always listening, so if something doesn’t add up, let us know.

We call it the Kanohi contest because that is what is being added to the character, but I’m pretty sure we’ve made it clear it’s a character illustration. You’ll understand once it starts.

No, that isn’t going to work as a replacement. If it’s a physical MOC, then three breakdown photos at minimum. If it’s an LDD/Stud.io MOC, then the file needs to be submitted at the same time.

That’s an illegal technique. Those are allowed.

4 Likes

On the matter of 3d vs Stud.io, I took it as a fairly simple difference. It’s the Mirimax models versus the sets. Stud.io is Lego, albeit in a digital form. Blender is unrestrained by that, and is a broader form of artistic expression.

1 Like

Perfect. Now the fun begins :eyes:

4 Likes

Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

Was wondering because if LDD/Stud.io were 3D art, the second half of the contest would basically have been made obsolete since it would have been forced to also include physical MOCs to stay fair.

The way things are, I’m still not completely sure why the MOC+artwork contests need to be a thing, but at least they are clearly separated in terms of what goes where, I guess? Though if we get 3D artwork that’s basically the model 1:1 with just a different mask/weapon that’d be a little… awkward. For example something like the style in The Legend Reborn which is very close to the sets. As a MOCist I’d feel slightly deceived if such a representation would be considered more canon than the MOC. Especially if the MOC already has a unique head design/mask.

1 Like

Why do I have such a difficult time using this forum :pensive:

As a bit of clarification, my art submissions will be with a stylization similar to this Tuyet I did a bit ago

19 Likes