Did Makuta in Gen 1 have the upper half of the Mask of Time?

(This is not a discussion about Gen 1 and Gen 2 connecting, but the evidence that the upper half of the Vahi did exist in Gen 1)

Ekimu refers to the upper half as “Vahi”. If it never existed in Gen 1, why would it have this name? It is literally the only mask in Gen 2 with a specific name, so it must be important. Also, there were legends in Gen 1 about a mask of Time, and the Brotherhood of Makuta anticipated it by creating Voporak. However, most were unsure if could be made. Unless someone knew of the upper half, I don’t see a way how the mask of time could have been anticipated. I also want to make a note of the Kratana, which have the exact same power as the upper half, which could potentially offer insight to the origins of the mask.

Anyways, why Makuta? Well, why would he want the Mask of Time so desperately? Because he wanted to connect the two halves, which I think would result in the ability to time travel.

Now, take a look at this quote from Makuta in Adventures #10: Time Trap.

“Little Toa, you have not yet begun to see even the barest outlines of my plans. I have schemes within schemes that would boggle your feeble mind. You may counter one, but there are a thousand more of which you know nothing. Even my … setbacks … are planned for, and so I shall win in the end.”

Makuta can thank Trem Krom for knowing how to overthrow Mata-Nui, but what about his signature “Plan” that he describes in Time Trap? I think the only possible explanation is that he used the upper half to look into the future and see what would happen.

If this theory is true, that would mean Makuta has a side of him we have never seen before. How did he get the mask? Did someone give it to him? Did he craft it himself? Regardless, that would make him the only being in the entire universe, including the Great Beings, to have even held both halves of the Vahi, which is awesome.

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There isn’t any information (That I know of at least) that tells us anything about the source of the legends regarding the Vuhi. But it isn’t unreasonable to think that they may have cropped up due to someone making a Vuhi prior to Vakama’s. However, you don’t provide very strong evidence to say that Makuta ever actually possessed this other Vuhi.

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How else would he have created his very elaborate plan?

His brain perhaps? It’s really not that unlikely. But let’s say he did have a Vuhi and he saw into the future with it. How is it that he still lost?

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He didn’t lose. His plan on taking over the universe succeeded. It was just short lived.

Also, I doubt he thought of all that by himself. To predict evey single possible outcome would require some kind of mask power, like the mask of possibilities, but Makuta didn’t have it, Toa Nikila did. Even if he somehow had a difference source of insight, like the mask of possibilities or even the Kratana, that doesn’t explain his desire for the Vahi. I don’t understand why he would put so much faith in a mask no one was certain was possible to create, unless he already knew it was possible because he had the other half.

Only an idiot wouldn’t look into the future to predict his enemies after taking over.

His plan wasn’t to take over and then piss off. His plan was to take over and maintain his control. Makuta failed.

Since when did he predict every single outcome? I’m inclined to think your drawing this conclusion based on the quote you posted earlier (and Makuta’s behavior in general). Makuta never literally prepared for every possibility, nor is there evidence to show that he was able to do this. Makuta did what a tactician should. Plan.

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Makuta’s plan was to take control. That’s it. We don’t know if he had anything beyond that, after he succeeded. It is entirely possible that the Vahi didn’t let him see his demise after taking control. We also don’t know where he would have kept it, or where and how often he used it. It’s clear from his tone in Time Trap that he planned for evey possible outcome. If we take him at face value, that means he would need something to know the future in order to plan for it.

I feel like I’m having a discussion with a wall at this point, so I’ll just lay it all out and be done with it.

If Makuta could see into the future, he’d know that once he’d taken control there’d still be resistance. Only an utter moron wouldn’t use the magic mask of future vision to see and predict what would happen right after taking over.

Not really. But let’s say that the Vuhi can’t allow the wearer to see their own death. He’d still be able to see what leads up to it, and it really wouldn’t be hard for Makuta to figure out why the Vuhi wouldn’t allow him to see beyond a certain point. He’d still be able to plan for the event and alter it.

You’re taking his quote way too literally. It is only logical for someone vying for power to plan and prepare for as much as he possibly can and then some. I think you should also take note of who Makuta is talking to. A “little toa”. He’s talking to his enemy. He wants the enemy to feel hopeless. He wants them to think that every attempt to stop him can only result in failure. And Makuta does believe this himself. He’s shown to be arrogant and prideful in regards to his own abilities.

Nothing about this quote proves that he literally was able to see every possible outcome. And his eventual failure shows this.

He did know there would be resistance and took action against the Order of Mata Nui, Brotherhood of Makuta, and Dark Hunters to eliminate any rebellion. Also, he couldn’t use the mask after he took over because he can’t wear it as a giant robot.

Let’s go back to Gen 2 and see how Ekimu used the mask. It showed him the upcoming cataclysm caused by his brother creating the Mask of Ultimate Power. It also showed him the Masks of Power, skull spiders, and coming arrival of the Toa. However, it didn’t show him anything beyond that (Skull warriors, elemental beasts and Umarak). It only showed him what would happen up to a certain point in time. If that’s true, that means Makuta would need to use the mask periodically as time went on. If he wasn’t able to use the Vahi as the Great Spirit Robot, it’s entirely possible that he just hadn’t seen that far in time to know he is defeated.

First off I totally have to agree with this:

Now, that aside here are a few things I could add to this discussion:

The Brotherhood of Makuta apparently predicted the possible creation of the Vahi based on “legends” - whatever exactly this means. However, here’s a highly speculative theory on how they could know:

Aside from the mighty entities who even existed before Mata Nui (Tren Krom, Artakha, etc.) the Makuta probably were the beings with the most knowledge of how the Matoran Universe worked - especially Teridax and (probably) Mutran.
The Ko-Matoran of Metru Nui could look at the “stars” and thus read Mata Nui’s thoughts. Teridax too was able to do this.
The Vahi is an object of the Matoran Universe, so somewhere within the code of Mata Nui there might be hinted something about a mask of time being able to come into existence and in any case Mata Nui would probably know at least something
Based on this there is one question left: Would the Makuta be able to somehow also read Mata Nui’s code?
Or did Mata Nui think something along the way of “Ah, the Great Disks have come into existence - the Vahi might be forged now” and that started the legend?

…that would be my best try at explaining that.

Yes, he did. However, the original Plan only included putting Mata Nui asleep and making the Matoran see the Makuta as their saviors - the Brotherhood would have controlled the Matoran Universe, but Teridax wouldn’t have taken over the Great Spirit Robot.
The “second” Plan only was set into motion because the Toa Metru thwarted Teridax’s plans in Metru Nui and got away with the Matoran - I also have a theory that the absence of the Matoran actually caused Mata Nui to slowly die, not the Makuta’s virus - after all something similar happened during the Great Disruption when the Matoran stopped working because of the Metru Nui civil war.
So Teridax had to think up a new way to gain power - and somehow he discovered the Core Processor beneath the Colliseum (maybe because of the Great Cataclysm opening the path for him) and then he began thinking “What if…?” Then he kept the Matoran away from Metru Nui for 1000 years because suddenly he needed Mata Nui to die… and so on.

In short: If Teridax could have looked into the future - why would he have bothered with the first Plan to begin with?
Also had he looked into the future he might have seen that the six Great disks could form the Disk of Time which in turn was the basis for the Mask of Time - what took six rookie Toa weeks would have been possible for Teridax in an afternoon - then he would have given the Disk of Time to Matoran Vakama - and then he would have had the Vahi like 2000 years in advance or something.

On the other hand, however, the Bionicle Universe is a Multiverse - meaning that whenever something could happen there’s going to be one universe where it happens, and one where not.
So, let’s assume Teridax uses the upper half of the Vahi and gets a glimpse of the future… it might only be one possible future. In some alternate dimension Teridax wins. In others he never even seized control of the Brotherhood.

… uh, yeah, something like that

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You brought up some very good points.

Even if the legends foretold of a mask of time not because of the upper half, but because of Mata Nui’s code, that doesn’t account for the fact that many were unsure it could be made. Makuta isn’t just sure that it could be made, but even knows how to make it, and assigns Vakama that task disguised as Turaga Dume.

I also mentioned in an earlier comment that since Ekimu could only see as far into the future as the Toas’ arrival (meaning he couldn’t see the skull warriors, Umarak, the Shadow Realm), that would suggest that the upper half of the Vahi only allows you to see to a certain point in the near future. It works kind of like time glasses. You can see clearer, but you can’t see for an infinite distance. If that’s the case, then Makuta wouldn’t have known that his first plan would fail, and that he would die on Spherus Magna.

And no, the Vahi doesn’t show what may happen, but what will happen. In the Graphic Novel, Battle of the Mask Makers, Ekimu explains that “the mask never shows fantasies, only truth”. If it did show possible futures, that would mean the upper half of the Vahi is just a Mask of Possibilities.

Not quite. The G1 Mask of Possibilities doesn’t let you see the various outcomes of a scenario, it lets you increase or decrease the likelihood of a certain outcome occurring. The G2 Vahi only lets you see the future (as far as we know).

Anyway, there’s no real reason to think that the G1 Vahi had an upper half, and even if it did, there’s just a little reason to believe that it allowed Teridax to see and predict the outcomes of his actions. For you to be right, an upper half to the G1 Vahi would both need to exist and be in Teridax’s possession. Since neither can be verified, there’s no way we can actually determine if this is a plausible theory–it’ll remain headcanon, at best.

One other point:

Teridax’s main reason for wanting the Vahi was to use it to speed up time after putting the Matoran of Metru Nui in their capsules. He wanted to reawaken the Matoran after a thousand years, after the capsules had wiped their memories, whereupon they would consider him their savior (this is his plan as stated directly in LoMN). The Vahi would (theoretically) let him speed up time for himself, so that he didn’t need to sit around for a millennium waiting for the Matoran to wake up. That’s why it was important to him.

Oh yeah, you’re right about the mask of possibilities. My mistake.

The upper half of the Vahi had to have existed in Gen 1 because Ekimu says that it’s ancient name is Vahi. It wouldn’t have this name if it didn’t exist in the only timeline that would call it Vahi.

It doesn’t matter what his intentions were. He somehow knew the Vahi could be made (despite universal uncertainty), and even how to make it. He had to know this from somewhere.

Just because the G2 mask shares the name of the G1 version and happens to comprise of two halves does not mean that the G1 version necessarily has two identical halves. I mean, I’d like that to be true just as much as you, because that provides the link between G1 and G2 that I always thought was there. However, I think the name was used as a callback to G1, rather than an indication that the G1 Vahi also has two pieces.

As for Teridax, he knew that the Vahi could be made because he had heard the legends that were cited earlier. He also probably also had a better idea of whether the mask was possible, given his status and knowledge.

Why is it that the main focus of Gen 2 is time? I think it’s because Gen 2 is the future of Gen 1. If they were different universes, why not an Olmak?

The only reason the Gen 2 Vahi is hinted at being an upper half is because the Gen 1 Vahi was made as a lower half, whether that was the intention in 2003 or not.

The legends don’t suggest the creation of the Vahi because many still doubted that it could be made, despite knowing of the legends. Makuta not only seemed to be sure that it could be made, but also how to make it. I don’t think just simple knowledge was the cause of this.

Are you sure about the second one? If he knew how to make it, why not acquire the Great Disks himself and make it without ever asking Vakama to do it? Then he wouldn’t need to make all the fuss of creating the Toa Metru, thereby inadvertently drawing attention to himself.

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If he didn’t know how to create the Vahi, what made him even think about the Great Disks as a possibility? Did he just guess and happen to get it right?

He’s not a mask maker. We aren’t even sure if he has ever crafted a mask. Also, that would raise suspicion around Turaga Dume. It would just be easier to ask a matoran to do it, then toss him to the Vahki as a pawn.

Simple answer: Teridax didn’t know that the Great Disks were the “raw material” for the Vahi. Like I already said: If he had known he could just have collected them himself and given the Disk of Time to Vakama way before the latter became a Toa. Why would Teridax order a mask smith to create the Mask of Time if he knows it can’t be accomplished with the Kanoka the mask smith uses?

I agree with this here:

Let’s say he didn’t know how to make the Vahi. That doesn’t explain his certainty that it can be made. If such a mask was universally doubted, why would Teridax ask a simple Matoran to craft it? Surely he knew, being the most in intelligent Makuta, that it wasn’t going to be that simple.

If he had it, we would have seen it /s