You have mentioned before that the Ignika can turn Tahu back to his nuva form, so my question is, would this give his makuta powers an boost similar to the one his elemental powers got with the transformation, would he even keep the powers, and how would it affect the golden armor?
Just curious.
It would not affect the Golden Armour, since the powers are in Tahu himself, not the armour:
I don’t know about the other stuff though. Good questions.
Aw man I wanted an epic Tahu vs Tuyet ultimate showdown
The real question is would all that new found power corrupt Tahu. He is basically a God now and we have seen the Makuta corruption effect him already.
Why couldn’t there be?
Personally, I think Tuyet’s main role would have been involved with Marendar, and possibly as the eventual leader of a new faction, but there’s nothing stopping Tahu vs. Tuyet.
When?
Mask of light movie when he was poisoned by the rahkshi. I realize it’s not quite the same but all that power now at his disposal and having in a way absorbed some makuta essence in a way could see that corrupting him.
Oh yeah, I had forgotten about that. Maybe they could have done something with that.
I highly doubt it. A group of Toa can usually hold their own against a Makuta, and Tahu only has a selection of their powers. I don’t think he’s that game-breakingly strong in the grand scheme of things.
She’s repeatedly stated to be as strong as an army of Toa, which is not the case for Tahu. Even full-powered Makuta have been destroyed by a few Toa in direct combat (In the Toa Empire when they weren’t held back by the Toa Code).
That said, there’s always the option to cheese her instead of beating her in direct combat, like Takanuva did.
There’s been no evidence of this.
Vakama barely managed to defeat Teridax due to the latter’s distraction with absorbing Nidhiki and Krekka, and the victory against him in 2001 was a ploy. The 2008 Makuta were specifically ordered not to harm the Toa, just to impersonate a real fight and lure them into restarting the core. Onua went up against Icarax and was beaten within an inch of his life, and when Kopaka managed to outwit the admittedly stupid Mutran, the Makuta effortlessly beat him into a coma with their powers.
Even with a selection of their powers, Tahu’s obtained a massive power boost.
She was put into a headlock by Helryx which she did not escape from in spite of being choked out.
This is an instance of doubletalk. Descriptions do not compare to actions and the actions of Tuyet have been painfully insignificant. The most impressive thing she did was knock Miserix over.
Could Tahu take down Tuyet in a head-on battle? I think it’d be close. With her unintentional modifications she’s a real threat, but Tahu’s no pushover in his current state either. Like Greg has often said, it all depends on circumstance.
Two Toa were enough to kill Makuta Kojol in Dark Mirror. Granted, one of them was a Toa of Iron, but he didn’t even use his Powers to directly affect his armor, he just chucked spikes at him.
I don’t know why Makuta don’t constantly spam their literal Invulnerability Power that they’re allowed to have but since they don’t there’s reason to believe their powers are less busted than we’re led to believe, or it’s just plot convenience.
Yeah, I never implied a Toa would ever be able to defeat a Makuta when matched 1-on-1 (Even though the fact that being distracted is all it takes to be defeated already speaks to the fact that the power difference can’t be that high.)
The Toa Nuva also didn’t have any numbers advantage. So I’m not talking about them either.
It’s less that she would have been unable to escape, It was just that the battle was ended then and there by the appearance of Miserix. But that’s not all:
Her elemental abilities are far above any other being.
Her physical capabilities, though, are not.
But for some reason she chose against using any elemental attacks for the duration of the fight, maybe to hide her power, maybe to avoid harming her allies with the massive flood waves.
You could make the point that Toa can be kept from summoning elemental powers If they can’t concentrate or are off-balance, and she couldn’t have freed herself because of that. This a weakness shared by Tahu and everyone else, though. If anything, it bolsters my point that numbers advantages are way more important in Bionicle than individual ability (except Tuyet still has the best chances against multiple opponents because she can spam powerful AoE attacks that don’t require her to sacrifice all her powers into a Nova Blast)
Do I believe that Tahu would be able to defeat Tuyet?
Absolutely. Her abilities are no match for his true power, Plot Armor.
Do I believe Tahu is actually stronger than Helryx though?
Nope.
Didn’t want to, didn’t see the attack coming, or Greg just likes to kill characters quick. But just because two Toa killed Kojol in an alternate universe with little difficulty doesn’t mean all Makuta everywhere are pushovers. In fact, there’s a lot of evidence to the contrary - most Makuta interactions ever, but more specifically the hunt for the armor-eating virus.
The Makuta, individual or organized, were such a threat that multiple individuals and plot points were highly valued solely due to theoretical effectiveness against them. You don’t get that reputation by being so pathetic the average combat capability is Two Toa > One Makuta.
Granted, this was Kojol, who was admittedly not the best combatant. Military strategist and inventor, but not combat expert. Plus, this was most likely after the Makuta had progressed - or arguably regressed - back into antidermis somehow, so one solid break anywhere on a Makuta’s armor was game over.
Then you’re omitting practically all Toa-Makuta encounters… Ever. The only thing that remains is specific instances and unique circumstances.
By the appearance of Artakha.
And it’s implied Helryx was more than capable of putting her down in that position, and that Tuyet was saved from this by Artakha, and not that she would’ve turned the tide of battle (see what I did there? please subscribe for more content) if Artakha hadn’t appeared.
That’s irrelevant.
She was steady on the path of winning in spite of not using the one ability that would’ve completely flattened Tuyet. This adds to my argument that Tuyet, while absurdly powerful, is not leagues above the current Tahu, since in her most powerful state she was nearly beaten by Helryx when Helryx wasn’t even using any elemental power.
That’s actually very incorrect. Individual ability is almost always greater than numbers, even when it really shouldn’t be.
Look at pretty much any character death in Bionicle outside of sacrifices. How do they occur? One move, a lucky shot, an application of power never utilized anywhere else, something that completely ignores the other individual entirely. Botar could’ve had a sporting chance against Icarax except Icarax used the one power Makuta haven’t used anywhere else for some reason, and crushed him into a tiny ball of metal. Tuyet would’ve been far more than a match for Nidhiki and Lhikan, but the latter simply sucked the heat out of water and materialized chains out of fire which hovered in space and transported objects without touching them.
You say the mathematical equations matter more than the individual abilities, and you’re right - in anything that isn’t Bionicle, however. Here, battles are sudden, deaths are swift, and climactic battles that drag on almost always end in both parties surviving in spite of intent. If a character is meant to die, it’s over.
But even if it was numbers first, Tahu still has decent odds against Tuyet. Assuming the highest Kraata levels he could have fought and absorbed were Level 6, he’d have Level 6 variants of:
Fear
Hunger
Weather Control
Illusion
Teleportation
Quick Healing
Gravity
Vacuum
Mind Reading
Accuracy
Limited Invulnerability
Power Scream
Dodge
Slow
Confusion
Sleep
…And these are just the ones that seemed useful to me in taking down Tuyet. The makuta are ridiculously overpowered, and the devolving into antidermis is probably their greatest weakness, forcing any still on the battlefield to fight from a distance at almost all times lest their armor get impacted in some manner and their antidermis leak out and dissipate.
You’re welcome to feel however you want. I’m welcome to feel you’re wrong.
Tahu having access to even half of these powers practically spells game over for Tuyet if she refuses to use the Nui Stone. But with her in possession of that and Tahu (who at the present is readily unfamiliar with Makuta powers and how they operate) holding even half of these in his hand… He’s got a fair shot.
In fact I think it’s more fair to say Tuyet has a fair shot at defeating him.
Can we just agree that Berix could easily take down both Tahu and Tuyet?
Berix is one of the most powerful beings in the universe…
I’ll have to consider this.
Iron and Plasma is on the stronger end of the spectrum, and Kojol may be on the mediocre side, but even if the odds are usually worse I’m still willing to bet a Toa Team can take on a single Makuta, even the stronger ones. Not the kind of odds where Tahu can comfortably go mad with power and not be stopped pretty quickly.
Nah, this time I was talking about Terry-Bogart. Arguably the thinking type as well, but he beat up Icarly so that’s gotta count for something.
Funny how I get to do that.
To be exact, Helryx was about to go Nova and Tuyet at the very least wouldn’t escape in time. But again that leads back to the off balance thing.
Helryx not using water isn’t nearly the same thing as Tuyet doing the same. Helryx missed out on a slight advantage. Tuyet refused to use a game ender. No way you’re telling me those are the same thing. In the following serial it was stated the others still didn’t know how powerful Tuyet actually was, which I take to mean she held back on purpose, or at least held back for some other reason.
To clarify, by numbers I mean multiple opponents, not multiple abilities.
Individual abilities matter a lot and deaths are swift, sure.
But they don’t matter more than numbers. Especially in a volatile Meta where a single blow can decide a battle, being outnumbered is so much more meaningful. It’s split attention and a good chance of being overwhelmed or caught lacking. Multiple fighters focusing down one opponent rarely happens, but if they do the group usually wins, not counting taking them out with coordinated surprise attacks.
Combination attacks are mad powerful and brutal. What matters the most though is tactics. Usually the party wins that gets to utilize their game plan first, because the fights are so heavily offense-focused.
Velika is a lie, Berix was the great being in disguise all along?!?!?
I think you’re seriously overestimating how much the Antidermis is a weakness. One solid break isn’t going to immediately kill them – heck, they can even exist for some time with no armor, as a sentient cloud. It can leave them more vulnerable, as the Antidermis can then be directly attacked, if you have some method of destroying it (like fire power, or heat vision), but if you don’t have something like that, the Antidermis is a strength, because it’s basically impossible to wound a Makuta.*
Case in point: The Shadowed One damaged Teridax’s armor in Time Trap. Teridax still won that fight, and Vakama had to threaten to destroy reality to get him to back off.
*Edit: It occurs to me after I posted that you could kind of “wound” them by crippling their armor, like breaking the knee so it can’t bend. Wouldn’t kill them, but might make it harder for them to fight. Rest of my point still stands, though.
None have been brave - or stupid - enough to try in the main universe… Or any universe. And since the only evidence you’ve given me is one extremely situational circumstance with Kojol, unfortunately your theory’s going to remain unproven.
Yes, he beat up Icarax, and your point is… that one Makuta who is tougher than another can beat him up. Okay? You’re right. But that doesn’t change anything.
As for Teridax’s loss to Vakama, the real reason why he lost is because he was in a Bionicle movie. The good guy has to win. And even then, he loss because he smashed a rock the size of a six-story building directly into his face at full speed.
Also, Vakama spent the entire film fight running away and trying to bait the (albeit incredibly stupid in the film) Teridax into doing something ridiculously predictable, so your whole power argument doesn’t even apply.
And it’s also funny that, since you don’t, I get to bring them up against you.
Onua’s dialogue in the 2008 novels makes it very clear that if the Makuta wanted them dead, they absolutely would be, no matter what circumstance they were in. The destruction of Makuta Tridax’s armor by the metal-eating virus is the extremely specific instance proving that people went significantly out-of-their-way in order to find a way to take the Makuta down - you can’t get around that.
I still hold that if these plot devices exist, and specific beings like Shadow Stealer were valued for their entirely theoretical usage against Makuta, that a random Toa team versus a given Makuta would not result in the Toa’s victory on average or under any circumstance except extremely rarely. You haven’t really shown much evidence to the contrary.
Helryx was close to breaking Tuyet’s neck as well. And I never mentioned the off balance topic, you did.
I also said nothing about Tuyet’s inability. Tuyet did nothing in this circumstance with elemental power. Helryx also did nothing in this circumstance with elemental power. This means nothing, because elemental power or no, Helryx successfully put Tuyet in a headlock and Tuyet did not successfully escape.
Tuyet could have blasted helryx across the room with the Nui Stone and Helryx could have gutted Tuyet from a significant distance, but what could occur and what did are two different things. Miserix also could have plunged all of his opponents into complete darkness (barring the fact that Brutaka also had Makuta powers at this point), but the fact remains that he didn’t.
Reasons can be suggested and explanations can be offered as to why Brutaka and Miserix didn’t do the situationally advantageous thing, and both can be suggested and offered for why Tuyet and Helryx did nothing either. But the only fact in these guessings is that they didn’t.
Watch as one Reidak completely obliterates numerous Exo-Toa despite numerous Exo-Toa being the only thing to penetrate the heavily-guarded island of Artakha, which is undoubtedly tougher than an angry Skakdi. Greater numbers also means next to nothing here.
Most of the Makuta you refused to cover have shown that they’re more than competent to take on more than one opponent at the time. If they aren’t busy gloating, which Antroz, Vamprah, Chirox, Krika, Spiriah, and to a lesser extent Gorast don’t seem to be, you have a competent opponent who’s paying attention to all sides at once. Even Icarax, who was perhaps the most privy to gloating, was able to successfully hold off two other Makuta who were described as being particularly battle savvy for a successfully long amount of time, and only lost when he opened himself up in the middle of a teleport.
Given that the amount of Makuta with battle experience and a tendency not to get lost in their own greatness seems to outweigh the amount of Makuta who get easily distracted and puffed up with their own ego, I think it’s safe to say you’re more likely to roll the die and end up with a Makuta who won’t fall for that sort of trick rather than one who will.
Tactics works, but not numbers. Pridak and the Barraki’s underseas armies, totaling over 100,000 individual warriors, weren’t enough to put down Teridax after the largest assault on a single individual in the history of that universe. Sure, Teridax faked his demise to trick them into leaving, but how long do you think they hammer on him before they were convinced?
And honestly, I’m not convinced. There’s barely any evidence pointing to Makuta being sorry sops that fall to a little bit of coordinated reasoning from any old Toa team that wants a go. Your evidence thus far is the fact that Tuyet could’ve done something to Helryx in their fight, that alternate Kojol was killed off in a matter of seconds, and that movie Teridax is a complete idiot (which I hardly disagree with).
And Willess decided to show up and strengthen my argument even more:
So much for the idea of a weak Makuta. Except Bitil. All the cool kids hate Bitil.
A sentient cloud which, while it could potentially use more powers other than influencing or controlling minds, hasn’t ever done so. It would make sense either way, if a Makuta needed a body or vessel in order to operate its powers, or if they could do so on their own, but none ever did when separated from an exoskeleton.
So basically, a Makuta gets a big enough hole in their armor, and the fight is over. Just… Don’t breathe.
Aye. And Teridax had the wherewithal to win the fight in spite of the slow leak. How big or how extensive the puncture was has not been addressed, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Shadowed One punched a bullet-sized hole in his fancy suit and forced Teridax to speed up the fight ASAP in order to stay in the game.
But yeah. Sudden puncture or no, Makuta are not to be messed with.
Look what I found.
That settles it, I guess. Oops. Go Tahu I guess.
Imagine having the answer right there all along…
I think since Ignikas powers are massive it could give Tahu his Nuva powers while keeping his Rakhsi powers. Imagination is the limit. It could give all toa new powers if it wanted to.
I too believe this. Ithink it was @ToaKebaka who first proposed that Marendar would go to Tuyet first since her increased toa power would make her irresistible for Marendar who reacts to Toa power.
I try to Make Marendar for the contest. One picture will have Marendar holding Tuyet by the Throat while Nui Stone has been effortlessly casted aside. Or Marendar holds it just out of her reach. Powerful image since Strongest of the toa is utterly helpless against toa killer.
edit: Jerminator did not claim ownership for the idea at any point. I just mentioned where I heard the idea from first time personally.