Toa Hagah Canon Contest Format Feedback

[SirKeksalot]

@Wolk

At that point though, why not just allow mocs?

Just to take a stage out of the contest. It expediates it.

[ToaArcan]

@Pakari

just skip the art contest and do it all in MOCs .

If we do this then we either have to ban 3D-printed parts or start an open revolution against Dorek.

[SirKeksalot]

@ToaArcan

or start an open revolution against Dorek.

We should do that regardless.

[Kini_Hawkeye]

Aight So for everyone who’s saying that Metru Mocs just need the Torso and Waist piece… I have a question:
Nenon, Toa of Psionics - Creative Content / Lego Creations - The TTV Message Boards (ttvchannel.com)

Is Metru Moc, No? We need a little more than that, methinks, in terms of stipulations.

Secondary to that, I should not need to remind anyone here of the board rules. If I do, I suggest you go read them before I remind you of them.

Kthanks.

[Chronicler]

@ToaArcan

start an open revolution against Dorek.

Gets on my powdered wig.

Viva la revolution fellas.

[Dag]

(The majority of this post was written several months ago, but the original topic was locked before I had the chance to post it. While this is largely a response to things said there and may no longer apply, I think at least several points are still worth mentioning.)

What is a Metru Build?

@SubParFauxPas

I’d say it’s a good place to start with the similarities between all the sets that are considered one, but I think you could safely boil it down to just the torso piece, and roughly similar scale/proportions

If I were to propose a rule for the Hagah contests, it would be:

“Your build must use 1 (no more, no less) Metru torso gearbox piece (part: 47395) in the torso’s construction, and scale with the existing Toa Hagah canister sets.
(basically don’t build a titan and just hide the torso piece inside)”

The similarities cannot be boiled down to just the torso piece, because the Toa Metru and Toa Hagah share more in common than just that one piece. It includes a working gear function, no articulated shoulders, and use of the metru thigh armor and feet.

The lower limbs can be interchanged (hence why they’re represented here as bare axles), and pieces can be added onto this frame, but this is what every set using a Metru build has in common. To make things even narrower, the Toa Hagah have only been seen to have metallic armor on the upper limbs, feet, and chest. I make this distinction because I have seen some Hagah MOCs use metallic armor on the lower legs, which are absent from Norik and Iruini. If having a “Metru build” means having the exact same build as them, this is what that encompasses.

@SirKeksalot

Greg specified that the Hagah were all Metru builds. This has no bearing on the shoulders, chest, arms, or legs, since those are clearly variable, as evidenced by Norik and Iruini.

And yet some people are fine with mandating and/or only voting for entries that strictly use other features of the Metru build, such as non-articulated shoulders and a working gear function:

@Voxovan

Tbh I was never a fan of those articulated Metru shoulders and they would definitely stand out from Norik and Iruini

@Minirigby

Honestly I’d be fine with mandating the shoulders match the sets. From a moc standpoint I prefer the shoulder mod we all pretty well use, but canonically speaking I think it would be perfectly reasonable to mandate normal shoulders that match Norik & Iruini.

@toaskello

I don’t think the shoulder mod should be banned, though I will trend towards voting for entries without that mod.

@Takutanuva

Also I am not saying that it should be required but I am not going to vote for something without a metru torso, and a gear function.

@SubParFauxPas

None of the custom torsos I’ve seen here even do anything that the Metru torso doesn’t already accomplish - actually, most of them are inferior as they can’t accommodate a working gearbox.

Creativity

The problem with strictly mandating the build above is that it greatly hinders the second point of these contests: creativity. Yes, these are canon contests, so canon takes priority over creativity, but one should not have to be sacrificed for the other. I personally find trying to work around constraints to be fun, but at this point, virtually no creativity is possible.

@SubParFauxPas

I mean, have you seen what people are able to do around a Metru build anyway?

While people have been able to do incredible designs with the Metru torso piece, they often become too different from Norik and Iruini, and even sometimes far too detailed, and are indistinguishable from an actual custom build. A perfect example of this is WholesomeGadunka’s Nenon, Toa of Psionics. Some people, myself included, were shocked to realize it actually used a Metru torso because it’s covered in so much detail. If the ruling for the contest is that a Metru build is simply a build that uses the specific torso piece and fits the Hagah proportions, then a build like Nenon would be allowed, while my custom design wouldn’t, which would be completely unfair. I don’t imagine most people would vote for a build like that anyway as it’s not cohesive with the other Hagah, but these discussions are not about what you would(n’t) vote for, rather what the rules should be.

@SubParFauxPas

And finally, there is next to no point to even using a custom torso, especially if they’re all just trying to emulate the Metru piece anyway - just use the Metru torso piece.

To me it just seems like a combination of people desperately wanting to leave a bigger mark on these character’s appearances than just their limbs, armour and masks and weapons, and clinging to the age old rhetoric of “custom = better”.

@SirKeksalot

At that point, you’re better off using a Metru torso.

While a custom torso should try to be accurate to the standard metru torso piece, slight modifications can allow for designs not possible with it. For example, in my Kualus design, I used an Inika shoulder armor piece as the chestplate. It can technically work with the actual torso piece, but sticks out farther and looks more awkward than on the custom torso (source for the left design).

For MOC contests, it’s subtle differences like this that can make a MOC stand out above the others. There is nothing inherently wrong with the Metru torso, but in cases like this, “custom = better” is most definitely true.

Canon

One reason people have been arguing to mandate the use of the specific torso piece is to comply with canon, but even Greg doesn’t see artistic differences, like those in the comics/movies, to be any less canon than the sets, just different artistic interpretations[1][2][3] (with some exceptions, like the Rahaga having helicopter blades while they are completely absent from the sets[4]). For example, there are two versions of the Rahkshi of Heat Vision. The version from the comics, which matches the standard build for Rahkshi, and the Stars version, which uses the Av-Matoran build.

So which one is canon? According to Greg, both are.[5] They are simply different artistic interpretations of the same thing. This can be applied to these Hagah contests, where if a MOC with a custom build did win, it would just be a different interpretation and not actually contradictory to canon.

Recently, a few people discussed in a topic the fact that the other four Hagah follow Norik, rather than Iruini, in that their mask shapes are not standard.[6] We do not know the standard shapes of Gaaki’s, Kualus’, or Bomonga’s masks, but we do know Pouks’, so an entry for Pouks should not be able to use the standard shape of the Mask of Emulation. However, others disagree.

@SirKeksalot

If Iruini can have a mask forged in the likeness of another of that Kanohi, so can Pouks.

@Atobe_Brick

I really want this whole “kanohi but in the shape of another” thing to be retconned.

@Underscore

well maybe greg should un-say that

Those who want to retcon and completely ignore Greg’s prior statement have no right to bar entries for the sake of canon when they themselves ignore canon.

Cohesion

The other reason people only want builds to strictly use the metru torso piece is not necessarily canon compliance, but more so cohesion between the Hagah.

@Takutanuva

I don’t like it contextually. I don’t think its a terrible design or build, but under the circumstances for the contest, I absolutely don’t like it. I want cohesion with Iruini and Norik. It doesn’t provide it.

@Hesplo

I believe that they should use the Metru GearBox/Torso, strictly for the reason that we have 2 Toa Hagah already in existence

During these canon discussions, I try very much not to directly say others’ views are definitely wrong because there are different interpretations that are equally valid, but if you think my build is far too different from the other Hagah to be considered a Metru build when the two vastly different Rahkshi builds exist and Greg considered them equally canon, you are wrong.

Conclusion

I see only 2 viable options on how to run the Hagah contests:

1. Have both MOC and art contests (the way it has been), and allow entirely custom builds in the MOCs which will be redrawn as strict Metru builds in the art. The reason for the art redrawing them is to maintain cohesion with Norik and Iruini, and art is not bound to the physical limitations of plastic LEGO pieces that MOCs are.
2. Have only an art contest, which would settle this entire debate, but moccists would be barred from participating.

The only option that allows for the most creativity and participation from the community while maintaining canon is option 1.

@Kini_Hawkeye

At the end of the day this Metru Build debate seems to be hiding a slightly darker undertone - whether or not it’s even worth it to have a Hagah Contest

What I fear is that, based on what most people have said thus far, is that even if custom builds are allowed, they will not vote for them because of the differences, even though it truly is not strikingly so, and the art will redraw it as a true Metru build anyway. This view disenfranchises those who enter custom builds. I completely understand that these are canon contests, but the question must be asked: is this worth it? With many already planning to enter Pouks using a standard shaped Mask of Emulation (such as Synnova, Toa_Good_Guy, Vahki6, doni, and potentially more), it’s likely one of them will end up winning and retcon established canon unless TTV adds a rule against it. When people will argue vehemently that a certain build should be mandated to comply with canon, but turn around and want another aspect of canon to be retconned, does the community really care about canon, or do they just want to take it and make it into whatever they please, regardless of what has been established prior?

[Hazash]

@Wolk

Yeah. The Hagah were never really a good point to use as a springboard for creativity.

Exactly. Same with the pretty redundant Toa Nidhiki contest. The Toa Hagah are characters I’d like to see represented, but at the same time I’d rather not risk an inconsistent and incohesive set of depictions becoming canon, depictions whose creation ultimately didn’t enable anywhere near as much creativity as prior contests.

[GoodGuy2006]

good moc though

[Spiderus_Prime]

Before anyone got right now of swearing up a storm, please be civil and pick some chooses, and bonus points if got Bomonga’s second non-metal color to be gray, so to keep that tradition of all the Toa of Earth to have the same color schemes.

[vootcaboot]

@Dag

What is a Metru Build?

Please, no.

[Pakari]

@ToaArcan

If we do this then we either have to ban 3D-printed parts or start an open revolution against Dorek.

There is already a restriction against 3D parts, and if we’re going as close to canon as possible, then I don’t see why people would want to use a custom piece for anything other than the mask or the shield/spear tip.

The being said, again, the Hagah masks can be literally any mask. It’s actually more likely than not they are already in the shape of existing masks. Having an art portion to design a custom mask (that would have to be 3D printed anyways if you want to make the MOC) just defeats the purpose of doing it as an art contest anyways.

My overall argument however is that, if we want to stick to canon, why do an art contest (that not everyone is very able to do) when plenty of people can do a Metru build? Why make it more complicated than just building what would be the set?

[Tarkur]

@Kini_Hawkeye

Is Metru Moc, No? We need a little more than that, methinks, in terms of stipulations

I would argue no the reason for this I’ve made clear earlier in this topic,

@Tarkur

“A Metru build Is a build not limited by armor or limbs but a torso build first introduced in the Metru sets and later the 2 set Hagah. Metru build must feature a Metru torso, the standard waist piece first seen with the Metru, a Gear box in the style of the Metru or the Hagah and a Metru chestplate. The Gear box is the most heavily enforced as it should be in line with the previously released Metru and Hagah sets but how you attach the chestplate or the waist is up to you. However it should be mentioned that the waist should generally be located around the same area as the founding sets of this build. Any other armor or limbs you’ll like to add is fair game. In this definition both Dark hunters Mimic and Ravager are Metru Builds.”

However its really close and could definately be an honorary metru build

[Chronicler]

Why not just build MOCs with our interpretation with a “Metru Build” and see if the community agrees with votes?

[vootcaboot]

@ToaArcan

start an open revolution against Dorek.

Can I bring the 3D-printed molotovs?

[Juli]

Thank you everyone in here who isn’t being toxic.

[SirKeksalot]

@Dag

The problem with strictly mandating the build above is that it greatly hinders the second point of these contests: creativity. Yes, these are canon contests, so canon takes priority over creativity, but one should not have to be sacrificed for the other. I personally find trying to work around constraints to be fun, but at this point, virtually no creativity is possible.

This paragraph alone basically invalidates your entire point because it’s entirely wrong. There exists plenty of variation within Metru builds. Meso just posted a really unique-looking one.

@Dag

While people have been able to do incredible designs with the Metru torso piece, they often become too different from Norik and Iruini, and even sometimes far too detailed, and are indistinguishable from an actual custom build.

Well we’re supposed to go for consistency here, so who cares? If you think a build deviates too much from the existing Hagah, don’t vote for it.

@Dag

For MOC contests, it’s subtle differences like this that can make a MOC stand out above the others. There is nothing inherently wrong with the Metru torso, but in cases like this, “custom = better” is most definitely true.

This is a canon contest. The Hagah are canonically Metru builds. This does not matter.

@Dag

They are simply different artistic interpretations of the same thing. This can be applied to these Hagah contests, where if a MOC with a custom build did win, it would just be a different interpretation and not actually contradictory to canon.

Then what’s the ■■■■■■■ point of having a canon contest if the contest doesn’t actually decide the canon appearance?

@Chronicler

Why not just build MOCs with our interpretation with a “Metru Build” and see if the community agrees with votes?

For the same reason you couldn’t make Artakha red. It contrasts canon. A “Metru build” is a very specific thing which Greg agreed applied to the Hagah. No reason to make a canon contest that doesn’t obey restrictions of canon rules.

[Winger]

If the only stipulation for a metru build is that the proportions have to be similar, then the majority of Toa MOCs people make are metru builds.

And if you say the proportions have to be identical, there’s still so much room for MOCs that look nothing like a metru build.

just a thought

[Pakari]

@Juli

Thank you everyone in here who isn’t being toxic.

I honestly think the issue is just so puzzling and difficult that everyone is actually just having a hard enough time as it is thinking of what to do.

[Tarkur]

@Dag

The problem with strictly mandating the build above is that it greatly hinders the second point of these contests: creativity. Yes, these are canon contests, so canon takes priority over creativity, but one should not have to be sacrificed for the other. I personally find trying to work around constraints to be fun, but at this point, virtually no creativity is possible.

So this is an uncreative build using no interesting parts usage I guess by that logic? or am I wrong feel free to correct me

[Mesonak]

I’d like to remind everybody of the thing I asked of you guys in the main post:

If you’ll allow me to rehash something from the document, I ask that you all be respectful in your critique and discussion in this topic. Not only towards us, but to each other as well. I know there’s a lot of people with vastly different priorities and personal interests in these contests, and there’s a variety of strong opinions (both positive and negative) on how the last few have gone, but please refrain from being snide, antagonistic, or overly hostile in your discussion.

I’ve already had to suspend somebody for being overly snide, and I’d like to not make it a repeat occurrence. I get there’s different opinions on both sides, but please don’t be hostile to each other over it. We all want good things for BIONICLE, even if our perspectives differ.

Additionally, let’s try to keep spam in check. We’ve already had multiple uses of the word filter and this topic has been up for like an hour. @SirKeksalot and @Frozendoomed, consider that a warning. The filter exists for a reason and it does its job, but that doesn’t mean people want to see a billion black boxes when they’re trying to discuss their Hagah contest.

With that said, keep up the feedback guys! Most all of you are being constructive, and we’ll be discussing some of this initial feedback in a Nak & Jay episode tomorrow (don’t worry, we’ll reply in this thread too, podcast listening will not be mandatory).