Greg or LEGO’s authority over the canon only matters insofar as money is being made from BIONICLE. If these contests were to go forward and have results, which were then accepted as canon, so long as no money was being transacted, LEGO has no reason (and, presumably, no desire) to contest Greg’s authority.
If, for example, the unlikely event of BIONICLE G1 being continued were to occur, with actual sets and story, the new story team would redefine the canon as they see fit, and if that wiped out the results of these contests, so be it…there’s no issue inherent in anything.
At the end of the day, these contests are nothing more than an expanded form of fanfiction and fanart, only with the label of “canon” attached to them–a label which can be removed at any time by whomever has the authority to do so.
Ok to chip in my 2 cents, I don’t see much of an issue with this, a lot of stuff in Bionicle never had official sets or was described in much detail, even if the contest winner doesn’t represent your headcanon of the thing in question, the creativity and the potential surge it’ll give the community as a result is worth it in my books.
Even then, if you don’t like the winner, it doesn’t have to be part of your view on the canon, I’m sure some people consider only the official Lego released sets to be canon and all else to be fan made.
Just some thoughts, basically, I see no harm done.
It’s also in my first post as well. Typically speaking, as far as a court would be concerned, Lego is a singular entity, an individual. While in actuality, yes, it is composed of many people, but Lego itself would be the one held accountable in court. But since they aren’t physically a singular person, they would have representatives in their stead to defend themselves (or make decisions in this case). Therefore, Lego still hold authority over Bionicle canon. It’s Lego, because the people within can change, but the entity that holds that authority, Lego, ultimately does not.
Unless they sell off the IP or it falls into Public Domain, etc. etc. As for a specific person, it is anyone’s guess. As far as anyone can be concerned, whoever would give the okay for Greg to publish continuations of the unfinished serials could likely be considered good enough to delegate such authority. Really, as far as the community end should be concerned, if it is to be official canon, as long as someone from Lego that Greg accepts as having authority on the matter said it was okay, that’s all that’s needed. He has been given the permission needed.
Outside of sake of discussion, I fully realize that Lego does not care and that Greg is the best person for this. That’s why I say the primary discussion should we be allowed to affect canon.That is the point of the poll, to see if people would be interested and okay with that. But unless canon is defined differently, and I would be very interested to see what others would use as the definition of canon for Bionicle, it would be difficult to get people to accept it as canon. Officially as true canon.
I read them. I am now asking for their source. Who has determined these definitions?
Who is this “LEGO” you speak of? LEGO is (as Var has already said) a company, a group of people, individuals. Individuals that make decisions not overseen by a singular “LEGO.” So I’ll ask the same question - If not Greg, who?
Additionally, let’s do a quick refresh on his position in the company:
Approvals of what he wrote. There are no propositions for writing contests. And in the past, there were no other people signing off on visual designs in regards to fan contests aside from Mr. Farshtey himself.
Tommy Andreasen is a concept developer. Greg even said on my Show that Tommy can basically canonize things by himself. And again, I must sincerely stress, these individuals both actively work for LEGO and have for roughly 20 years.
Neither of these people are former representatives. They are active representatives for the company entirely and their jurisdiction, which includes the themes they heavily worked on.
I agree, however I’m not seeing that from the people in support of these contests. The deciding factor here is Greg Farshtey, the fan contests would just forward their pick to be decided on.
Back to this. It’s really hard to take anything out of context here when these quotes can be jumped back up to. Additionally, nothing you said has been taken out of context. Your argument thus far has been to decry the legitimacy of Greg Farshtey as a source for BIONICLE canon, which leads us to questioning a slew of information over the years. The reason I point this out is because Greg Farshtey is still acting under authority of LEGO. He is representing the company. I’d agree with you if he weren’t, but he still is. LEGO permitted him to be here and act in official capacity.
Where do you believe you were taken out of context here? Or am I misunderstanding your point of view?
Hang on, I say this mostly in jest but I have to know. If I can get the official LEGO Twitter account to say that Greg Farshtey has full authority to dictate BIONICLE G1 canon, is that all we need here? Or do we need a blood relative of the founder of the company to sign off on it? What’s the bar here?
Quick aside, but @Husk, your english is excellent. I would not have guessed you did not speak it as a first language.
Ok but someone must have the ultimate say in what can be considered canon, yes? If you believe someone has to give Greg permission… then who gave this person permission to decide… and where did THAT person receive permission… how long does this permission train keep going until we’re finally satisfied.
Why would Greg’s hypothetical boss be considered the authority on BIONICLE G1 lore and not Greg himself, the sole author of said lore. Do you actually believe that Greg has to make sure he checks in with the powers-that-be every single time he added someone to his story?
Or should we assume (and I think we absolutely should) that perhaps LEGO has entrusted Greg with the ability to conduct story-based decisions on a portion of the property that the company will never return to, as would be suggested by the previous statements by LEGO that continuation of G1’s story would fall on Greg post 2010.
But ok. Let’s assume that Greg DOES have to report to someone about changes to the story. Who?
My guess would be the Editorial Director, who oversees the creative direction of all publications out of LEGO. One would assume that Greg has done this, given that he was very quick to say yes not only to the idea of canonization. But maybe we should reach out to this director just to make sure we’ve covered our bases.
So whos the Editorial Director? Oh that’s right, it’s Greg.
My point being that your criteria for who can decide what is canon and who can’t is arbitrary. There’s no reason to doubt that Greg has full authority over the story of G1- otherwise he wouldn’t have agreed to make changes to it in the first place. And unless you can actually point to someone with a say in the BIONICLE G1 story who’s above Greg I see no reason to doubt the validity of his decisions in regards to canon.
Greg: “Hey, Jorgen Vig Knudstorp (the CEO of LEGO in 2010), can I make Velika a Great Being?”
Jorgen Vig Knudstorp: “Um… who are you?”
Greg: “I’m Greg Farshtey. I write the BIONICLE books and the boss of my boss of my boss of my boss of my boss of my boss to my editor says to report to you on these things. Can Velika be a Great Being?”
Jorgen Vig Knudstorp: “…sure, whatever, you say George.”
Greg: “Thanks!”
Jorgen to his assistant after Greg leaves: “What’s a BIONICLE?”
Honestly my thoughts have warmed on them a bit. I’m still not super into the idea, but I’m at least interested in seeing what’ll come of them. And maybe we could get some story stuff at some point?
That said there’s some characters I wouldn’t want to see that I’ve seen thrown around. Marendar specifically. He’s a character we know almost nothing about and giving him a visual depiction also gives him a bit of personality, which gives the winner of the contest more power over the character’s depiction than other contests would.
A question: In last podcast regarding this matter you said, that you were to give Greg a list of characters you want to make contest for for him to approve. Was there any progress regarding this since? And if I may, which characters are those on a list?
Thanks @Eljay, but I’m sure you wouldn’t say so if you knew the time it takes to be sure the message is coherent and understandable hehehe.
TLDR: skip to last paragraph if you do not have time to read my ramblings
That said, I understand that there’s a difference in prespective and who people consider to be the ultimate autority in the matter of official Canon.
For me, that fact that Greg still works at Lego and worked on G1 is not enough since the line was discontinued.
It is surprising to me that this many fans wouldn’t perceive as two different things the stories, notions (and what else) published and made during the line’s runtime and what was said and done after it ended. I mean, it ended, officially. Greg was given permission to continue a bit with the serials to smooth the abrupt ending and was left free to answer questions because it wouldn’t lead to anything bad. It is pretty apparent to me that the G1 line is, from Lego’s perspective, at best in stasis, packed away for an indetermined amount of time, and at worst, just finished. It is not still running, under the authority of Greg who was put in charge and given full powers to continue the line, it has stopped.
Can we agree that there’s a recognisable difference between what was established during the line’s active life, and what came after it? I don’t mean in quality, I mean as in: " X was said in 2007, when bionicle was live and well" and “Y was said in 2013, after the line ended”?
I don’t know, for me it is a jarring fact, a distinction clear as day.
Is it then that for you what Greg says after G1 ended is perceived as if nothing changed, as if these things were said (or example) in 2008?
Would you consider as an acceptable possibilty to define/lable what was said after G1 was discontinued as something even slightly different? To acknowledge that ‘something’ changed, just for clarity sake at least.
To put a note about the moc of the winners clarifying that the depictions were selected and accepted well after the line ended by Greg and not (don’t what to call it) a fully active team selected by Lego currently working on the line that was instead put to rest years ago?
I don’t want to come off as rude, I’m genuinely intrested to know if I’m the only one that views things done after the ending of the line as a sort of EU, like a Star Wars Legends of sorts, would that be stories or ‘canonized depictions’. For the record, I love Legends, as I love everything that Greg did after G1’s ending, just how it is so controversial to recognise the line that was drawn by Lego itself, it’s discontinuation, as something defining for the line? As something worth acknowledging ad meaningful?
• If I may, I’d also like to stress the point i made a while ago about a minimum threshold of voters to consider this poll (and the contest) as something the Bionicle community voted for. I mean, I didn’t even know TTV existed around 2 years ago, but I was still Bionicle fan…maybe that is the point I’m trying to convey with all of this, how that is related to the the concept of Official Canon, Lego as a company. The fact that line was officially discontinued and that Greg is literally hosted on a fan site, I know and understand the various reasons, but still…I cannot recognize this as something equivalent to an official announcement from Lego, so I cannot recognize it as official G1 canon. Lego is the owner of Bionicle, not an ex author for the line, a great person, a great creative, a pillar of Bionicle, but nothing Official in this situation.
I thank anyone who had the patience to read, hope I made my point of view clearer, more accessible, have a good night.
So here’s the thing @Husk because I actually agree with where you’re coming from but just not what you’re actually saying.
The truth is that with Lego being finished with Bionicle, the final and only arbiter of real canon right now is Greg. He’s also significantly more than just an “Ex author” of the line. As Var as pointed out, he’s the editorial director at Lego.
While there are overlapping responsibilities based on employer, an editorial director and managing editor have different roles. A director is in charge of the overall direction of the publication and its content, whether online or in print. All writing selected for the publication should fit in with the vision of the editorial director. They oversee the managing editor, who focuses on supervising staff members, assigning articles, and ensuring deadlines are met. Qualifications for both positions often include a bachelor’s or master’s degree in journalism, English, marketing, or related field; experience in publishing content; and communication skills.
-Ziprecuiter
What that means is that Greg Farshtey IS the word from Lego, not just on Bionicle but on everything that comes out of the company. He is the closest thing we have and will ever have to “LEGO” saying anything, barring an official statement from the CEO.
What you have to bear in mind is that while Lego the company owns the line, Greg Farshtey and the story team created the world and decided what was and wasn’t canon. Lego never made official statements after canon contests in the old days either, rather their approval was implied by the corporate body continuing to let Greg onto sites like BZPower and not shutting those contests down.
So while your points are actually relevant in terms of community involvement for the polls, the fact remains that if it was good enough for Greg Farshtey (back when he was just on the story team) and it was good enough for us, it should be more than good enough for us now that he’s running the entire show.
This is literally the poll to decide if they happen at all. The poll is going to end in 15 days. So no, there is no set time, assuming they happen at all.
I’d like to issue a correction on my previous post.
It was around 4 years ago, time flies
Why Lego as a company is important.
That is what I mean with a difference in perspective, I read that as a contradiction. If Lego is finished with Bionicle there’s no matrioska type thing were now Greg is the last standing authority, it ended. Greg still works at Lego as an editorial director but not for G1’s Bionicle because it is not an active line for the Lego group.
If the line is still running and Greg is the head of it where is the official site or announcements on official Lego channels? Why the situation is completely different from what it was in 2008?
Greg is only able to speak to us on a fan site.
The fact that Greg (as an individual and not a spokesman from Lego) is hosted on TTV is lucky for us but it doesn’t mean anything officially for Lego, he is talking to us through non official channels, not from a Lego platform or a recognised Lego Group account on something like twitter. If he wasn’t invited here after the shut down of LMB (and he was there just so he could reconnect with the fanbase in preparation for G2, after the original bionicle site was literally shut down by Lego and then reinstated as the G2 site) we wouldn’t have any ‘official news’, he is no spokesman for the Lego company, all of this falls exactly in the same category as everything said and done after G1’s ending, it is a courtesy to fans, a way to remain in contact with the fan community he helped creating and to keep it alive because it is fun, it inspires creativity and he’s happy to be with people who enjoy his legacy.
Until there is an official Lego announcement on their platform or from one of their accounts stating that the account Greg has on TTV messageboards, speaks for the company and it’s a recognised representative of the Lego Group, it is no ‘Official Canon’. The company infrastructure is missing, Lego is a company, a company is made of individuals but that doesn’t mean individual=company. TTV is great but it is a fan platform and this is exactly why Greg can be here talking. What is said here will probably never reach at least 80% of the Bionicle fandom, people who would instead be reached by official announcements from the Lego Group, Tv spots, Lego magazine ecc…
Did I manage to get my point across? What I mean by official canon? Like many others I always considered TTV simply as another fangroup, a great one at that and now even better because it hosts a sort of Ask Greg, but not related to Lego itself, and that’s the same for Lego, this is a fan community and that’s why he is free to talk as an individual, not as a Lego editorial Director speaking for the Company.
This is why Lego as a Company is a fundamental concept for G1 Bionicle official canon. You don’t like the term official canon? Should we call it the ‘normie canon’? Should we call everything said here and the contests as a sort of TTV canon? Because I can assure you that, for the majority of Bionicle fans, it will just be that, if they even know that such a contest is being held to begin with.
I personally prefer it, i accept the word of Greg but we should make a clear distinction between official and not official, at least that’s the way I feel about this.
I’m sure others like ajtazt could articulate this a lot better and in a more concise way, but I did my best, it is at least better than my previous post, that’s for certain. I was really tired.
So here’s where I think the misunderstanding is coming from. Lego the company has never cared what was or was not Canon, that power was given solely to Greg ages ago when the original series of Canon Contests occurred. Why? Because Lego’s system for designing Bionicle was as follows:
1)Set Designers would be given some pieces and Faber’s concept art and told to “make it.”
2) Greg and the story team would build the next year of story around the sets they were given, as closely as possible.
Lego has always had a top-down approach to Bionicle, which is to say that Lego proper wouldn’t have cared if there was a Canon at all. They made sets, the story team made story, and if that same system were in place today Greg would still be making all the canonization decisions on behalf of lego.
The idea that he’s not talking to us through official channels is valid only until you understand the hoops that were jumped through, rules that were instated, and things that had to happen in order to just make it so Greg could sign up. Greg’s posting on TTV are as much a form of official communications as we’re ever going to get. Greg was not just allowed to be on the site because he could. Lego’s corporate body had to approve him making an account here, for the exact reasons you’re mentioning now and because of the fact that he is a representative of the company. So yes, while he doesn’t necessarily have the backing of the Lego corporate body in every decision or statement he makes, to discount his word now simply because he doesn’t is to discount every clarifying statement he has ever made. It’s to discount everything he said on BZP, every canon contest that was hosted there. I can assure you now that plenty of “Canon” things never got any kind of official call out by Lego on the Bionicle Website or their official accounts.
So while I agree with you in theory, the past Fifteen to Twenty years have created a precedent entirely separate from what you’re proposing. Greg is the arbiter of Canon, it’s been widely accepted that he is such and so when things such as these are considered, it’s because if Greg considers it Canon, that may as well be Lego considering it canon. Once again, Because Lego acted through Greg.
For a non-bionicle example, I am a sales rep for a company. If I quote a price to a customer my Company’s approval is implicitly implied by my acting as an agent for the Company. Greg is still an Agent for Lego, and believe me when I say that his presence on this site is about as official as it could ever be made. Greg still has the authority to speak on behalf of Lego, that hasn’t changed just because Lego no longer produces the line.
If Marvel stopped making comics 20 years ago, would Stan Lee no longer have been an authority on comics just because Marvel’s Corporate Body stopped? Explicit endorsement will never happen, but Lego has implicitly endorsed these contests as evidenced by the fact that Greg was open to them and he’s still on this site.
To think that Greg didn’t have to go to anyone in Lego to make sure that it would be fine before he gave the go ahead to vote on it here is a huge fallacy. He’s still employed by Lego, he’s one of the executives at this point. His position in the company alone implies that he can do this.
TL;DR, Greg wasn’t allowed to be here unless we worked to make our site follow Lego’s very explicitly stated Rules. The fact that he is still here implies that Lego is perfectly comfortable with whatever actions he is taking. His position at Lego implies that he is the sole arbiter of Canon not just for Bionicle, but for all of Lego’s branding.
The Validity of Greg as a a person who can authorize what is or isn’t Canon should never be brought into question because of that. He has Lego’s approval or he wouldn’t have said yes to the idea in the first place.
Feel free to disagree on other reasoning, I even agree with some of what you’ve said! But the argument stemming from Greg being/not being a representative of Lego is entirely misplaced.
If the argument is “we need to make a distinction between what is and isn’t official because Greg cannot decide that” then I would recommend going forward that you automatically assume that anything not explicitly mentioned in story serials, books, movies, or comics to be entirely non-canon. Cause there’s a LOT of world building that never got put in those.
Me too man
I just, I think I don’t know how to explain it well.
I feel like too much time has passed and too many things have changed to still be accepting of the idea of the implicit endorsment.
I agree with the entire first segment, great explanation by the way, I know and agree with all that stuff but [quote=“Kini_Hawkeye, post:278, topic:51213”]
if that same system were in place today Greg would still be making all the canonization decisions on behalf of lego
[/quote]
the system is no more in place, there’s only Greg now and the line is over.
I understand your point with the officiality of Greg’s position, but here[quote=“Kini_Hawkeye, post:278, topic:51213”]
It’s to discount everything he said on BZP, every canon contest that was hosted there. I can assure you now that plenty of “Canon” things never got any kind of official call out by Lego on the Bionicle Website or their official accounts.
[/quote]
That is not what i meant. My point is about time frames and how it affects it all, while the line was running there was no need for ‘official confirmation’ on anything because the fact that the line was still running was confirmation in and of itself. After the line ended however things change. I feel like you guys probably view things more or less like how I previously stated [quote=“Husk, post:273, topic:51213”]
Is it then that for you what Greg says after G1 ended is perceived as if nothing changed, as if these things were said (or example) in 2008?
[/quote]
But he is alone now, separated from the system and everything else that was in place and working along side him befor the line was discontinued, for this I say it is not the same Bionicle Canon as when the rest of the infrastructure was in place.
Lego acted through Greg, it is not still acting. But I get it, for you it makes no difference, it is just strange to me that you would consider this a natural continuation of G1’s canon as if nothing happened even though everything happened, line ended, project closed and only one man remained to smooth the abrupt ending with the serials and aswering questions as a courtesy to fans. You feel like the important part (Greg) is still here so it’s fine while I feel that the Official Lego Canon from G1 would only be continued if every aspect of the infrastructure become a whole once again.
The argument is not that, I’m sorry if I couldn’t explain any better.
While the line was still alive, Greg and the story team could decide that. The point is that something concrete happened (line discontinued), time passed and things changed as you acknowledge here yourself[quote=“Kini_Hawkeye, post:278, topic:51213”]
the past Fifteen to Twenty years have created a precedent entirely separate from what you’re proposing.
[/quote]
The argument is: I feel like we should differenciate between what came before and after the ending of G1, everything up to that point is canon by default unless later stated by the owner of the IP, so no issue with the old contests or the implicit worldbuilding.
Alas I don’t want to come off as the annoying one monopolizing the thread entrenched in his own rederick, I tried to explain myself as best as possible, at this point I feel like I would simply repeat too many things and that’d be irritating for anyone.
Anyway thanks for taking the time to read my posts, it has been a nice time. The contests will be done, that I knew, I was just advocating for some steps to be taken in order to make things more “defined” one could say. One thing I wish someone would consider is the minimum voters treshold thing, but seeing as how that is related to the canon aspect I doubt anyone would care.
I eagerly await to see all the amazing interpretations that this contest will give birth to.
It is based on how it has been used in this topic and Youtube comments. Only restated in a more definitive and clear manner as others where either unable to state them as effectively or unwilling to define what they meant. A construct of the community collective based on the discussions thus far.
In case it was missed, it was stated as, “So, let’s establish the floor, shall we?” Not I, but the larger whole, as best as I as was able to understand from their positions. And thus allow them to correct it or decided if that is not the floor to be established.
It seems an accusatory tone is the most accepted one here, so very well. In reference to the bold, who are you accusing? Me or the argument/concept?
Yes, you are taking things out of context of what was said, both within the post itself and within the topic and discussion. Unless I otherwise explicit state something as my beliefs, thoughts, or opinion, never treat it as such. The argument and I are not one in the same, nor did I state it as my own. Though which ever you are attacking, neither I nor the argument is doing what you claimed.
You want my opinion, my argument? That was the conclusion, the ending two paragraphs where I very clearly claim it as my own.
[quote]Regardless of what perspective is taken, be it these few mentioned or others further expanded, it will have an affect. For some, it will actively discourage and for others it may springboard new creation. And if the goal was to spur on creation, then by all means, I would say yes. But at this point, to add to canon in such a way, I would have to say no. Too much time has passed, too much has changed. Canon, as is, has inspired many before and it will continue to do so without the need of such additions.
Or perhaps I’m completely wrong. It seems the possible power to have such influence over a stopped story has brought many to life. Maybe it’s legitimate or we still have hungry sharks seeking something to hold over others. Hopefully I am wrong in that aspect. But it does feel to me a lot like others asking Greg questions to get credit for certain things canonized rather than for the good of the fans.[/quote]
In which nowhere do I claim or even indicate that I believe Greg does not have the ability to official decide canon in the matter of this contest were it to happen. If that were the case, surely it would have been included as reason for why I voted against such a contest. Yet based on the final sentence, it could be more inferred that I take Greg’s word as canon.
The only other time I give my opinion in that post is an example of how I would feel about these missing visuals finally being given something. The MOCing perspective section to be specific, only in the first paragraph. The remaining portion goes back to articulating the collective thoughts thus far and trying to better present it.
You clearly take this entire thing as my beliefs, but even if that was the case you ignore the crucial ending sentence of the paragraph that has shaken you.
It is for neither. It only acknowledges that in a debate both could make good cases, yet then dismisses one side. That side dismissed being that Greg does not have authority over canon. And if the goal of mine, the post’s collected community thoughts, or the argument’s goal to just discredit him completely, why was it not a bigger deal? Why such a small focus, minor side comment?
Now then, if we look at the argument itself, it also does not try to discredit Greg. As previously explained, based on the definitions supplied, everything Greg has done for Bionicle from while it was active to after discontinuation was under proper authority. While it can be questioned, from the argument’s perspective, if he still has permission to answer questions/give clarifications here on TTV, the argument can easily accept it as being proper given Greg’s previous stipulations for being on sites. The only thing it questions is whether Greg has the power to make fan created content, as of right now, canon.
~mutters something about a typo and how there shouldn’t be a space in the “anymore” there~
It does not question what was done in the past as it fits the definition of canon. But as of now, if his only authority is to answer questions, to give clarity, that is not the same thing as making fan content as official content. It does not seek to discredit, but ask if his word is still good in that specific area.
In which there is a very easy counter if it the goal is only for character visualizations. Because then it can be just frame around as someone asking Greg if this is what the character would look like and him saying yes. As far as the argument would be concerned, in that light, Greg is only giving clarification. And last it check, clarification is a definitive power he has left.
For whose who actually agree with the argument or think like the argument, I can’t say if that would be enough for them. Just like the Lego Twitter account, it may be or may not, I don’t know. I only proceeded to further represent the argument and concept to clarify its potential stance. I am so often a devil’s advocate, he would who represent those silenced, dismissed, or unable to properly represent themselves.
All I can say is that you are very quick to become Greg’s white knight as though protecting him from some vicious dragon. When in fact it much more like you’re Don Quixote fighting a windmill in Greg’s honor. You’ve gone against an illusionary foe, twisting and selective reading for reasons unknown. And ignored both the ending of the first reply to you as well as the reply to Var’s, an attempt to move it back onto the primary topic.
I only reply and continue now in this instance to clear my name, since you seem to think me the villain. I am not someone who is here to destroy Greg, nor discredit everything he has done. After this, I will say no more on the matter for it has gone on long enough.
