Power in G2

So I got into a debate with @Tarvaax about whether Ekimu is stronger than Umarak and then whether he could beat the Toa. We also got on about whether Umarak was stronger than Kulta.
Then I got interested in what others opinions are. Post your thoughts below and don't forget to mention why.
If your interested to see mine and Tarvaax's points, the argument started on the Bionicle 2016 discussion on post 12456.

How much information do we even have about the power of Umarak or the upgraded Toa?

I'm really uninterested in siphoning through the comments. Mind sharing your opinions right here?

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Ok

I believe Umarak is stronger for many reasons

  • he is millions of years old, so millions of years of fighting experience
  • he's designed to hunt creatures who are OP and greater beyond Ekimu
  • he's the embodiment of Shadow, therefore above Makuta. Who's power was equal to Ekimu's
  • the Toa wouldn't need creatures if they could already beat him. It wastes time and gives him more chance to fight a Toa one on one, probably win and battle a creature one on one. This results in him being stronger and harder to defeat
    And why not send in Ekimu if he's "stronger"
  • Ekimu apparently beat Kulta, who wore MoCr, however he was preoccupied fighting Tahu so was caught off guard. In other words he got lucky
  • Umarak has caught a creature, Ketar, no easy feat considering how strong they seem
  • If Umarak was weaker than Ekimu why would it say in Umarak's bio that the protectors are praying the Toa can defeat him. They would look at what happened to Kulta and ask Ekimu to sort him out for them

If I can remember anymore I will add to it

Are they though? We've seen some ridiculous things in G1, and G2 has the Mask Of Ultimate Power and the ability to travel through time (or, at least, that's what's been hinted at).

Ekimu and Makuta are brothers but we can't tell whether or not one of them were stronger than the other. I don't understand how being a shadow / having shadow powers would make you stronger than the mask makers by default.

Then why should Umarak need the ability to combine with the creatures as well? In addition: the Toa are a team - why wouldn't they fight the big bad as one?

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Seem like pretty solid reasoning, but there's always the possibilty of a plot explanation, such as, for example ; Ekimu dissapears, presumably to search for Makuta, therefore he isn't there to take care of Umarak.
But based on this, i guess Umarak would win, althought there still are missing peices of information that would be crucial to know.

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Actually, the Mask of ultimate power is pretty lame. Its just a golden kanohii from g1 with 6 elemental masks in it.

I'm not going to go too much into the realms of "evidence" here, because honestly we have very little. I do think, while Umarak may not have as much physical powers as Ekimu but he would hardly be a push over in battle. He is quite possibly the embodiment of shadow itself, and being a Hunter I would imagine him being quite crafty. Quite honestly was well, I think the Toa are a lot more powerful than Ekimu, they just aren't as wise as him. Kulta might not have been a big threat, had they had some kind of plan or strategy. Ekimu caught him off guard so I'm not sure if it was a very fair fight in that regards. As for Makuta we know very little about, but he seems to have a lot of influence over the Island of Okoto. I still think Umarak should be something to fear by him, though it seems LEGO might want to go down the road of a clear cut, singular baddy so that's up to them.

@BorisTheBiomech Combining elements seems to be much different than it was in G2. It's definitely seen as a bad idea and I sort of get the feeling than it can bring about the end of days.

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For your first point: they are the elements essentially, they have raw elemental energy and powers. So yes they are

Second point: it says they had natural balance. Interpreted this means equals. His betrayal and thirst for POWER upset it. They are equal in power

Third point: Umarak was created to hunt the creatures, that's basically his goal in life. And by splitting up and searching for the creatures, they leave themselves vulnerable to Umarak whilst he has free roam of the island. Not exactly fighting as a team is it

"Ekimu caught him off guard so I'm not sure if it was a very fair fight in that regards."

See Tarvaax tried to say Kulta had time to react but he had just knocked down Tahu.and was not looking at Ekimu.
He also tried to say Ekimu was stronger cos of him beating Kulta (by surprise).
I agree he's wiser, not stronger. His mask is stronger but he himself is not.
I might see if I can get Tarvaax to argue his point so it is more interesting and you can hear both original points, comebacks etc.

Thanks guys, I'm really enjoying this topic so far. I hope you are too

I get your points on how strong Makuta and Ekimu are in comparison and how Umarak could fight the Toa individually, but calling the creatures overpowered is still questionable in my opinion: we don't know how strong the raw elemental power is, do we? Much like saying something possesses raw physical power, it tells us nothing but the type of force used and nothing about how strong said force is in comparison to others.

We also still can't compare the power of Umarak and the mask makers directly, can we? It could be that both Makuta and Ekimu are stronger than Umarak - we just can't tell.


This may seem off-topic but I'm still interested: what's the point in debating over characters' power levels?

updated title to reflect the content

Frankly, I think that, while weak, the toa in their '15 state might barely hold up to Ekimu

Hm, interesting.

I personally feel that in terms of physical strength, like who could lift more, Umarak would be stronger than Protector Ekimu. However, I think 2016 Ekimu could out-lift the current Umarak.

I also prefer to think that Kulta is physically stronger than Umarak, but Umarak posses more power and cunning. Basically Umarak has less strength, but he uses that strength to greater effect than Kulta uses his.

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When I say OP I mean in comparison to what we have now. Without them their element fades, showing they are quite powerful and significant, and raw elemental energy is meant to represent it as purer and stronger in a way. The creatures can control and use it better than Toa, also it would be stronger in comparison to the Toa's power. Plus Ekimu can be deduced to be weaker than the Toa in their uniter form. He beat Kulta, albeit by luck and if he were stronger than the Toa they would send him to defeat Umarak.
Even then the protectors are PRAYING, key word being praying, that they can beat Umarak. So currently this sets up a power hierarchy for me:

Umarak and creatures
2016 Toa
Kulta (MoCr)
Ekimu and Makuta
Kulta
Toa 2015
Skull baddies ( 1 on 1 probably stronger than the 2015 Toa)
Protectors
Skull spiders

@PakariNation99 I think doing a summary of overall power and who would win a fight seems best. I agree Kulta is a heavy hitter but Umarak has more powers, so wins. Kulta with MoCr has the same problem. He didn't display new powers against the Toa, just increased size and strength (presuming with size but I don't believe he was that tall to begin with)

Forgot to mention, Umarak has so much experience it's seems hard he would lose

The way I did the order, I pieced together pieces of info, tell me if you believe it to believe it's accurate. If not please tell me your reasoning.

Of course things will become clearer once we get more story but it is fun to try and put info together to try and work it out. And well as express opinions, at least for me anyway

I'd agree with this list.

Umarak would be beaten by very few beings on Okoto, I believe.

Yeah, I put him on par with the creatures cos they appear to avoid him well. Plus their character bios make it sound like they're ARE the element or at least an embodiment of it. This seems to hunt they are a lot stronger in that regard than the Toa, would explain why they feel the need to unite as well.

Then again I might be overthrowing but ever since I got into the debate with @Tarvaax I've found it interesting to think about

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Was this mentioned somewhere? I've only skimmed through the site, and all I found was that they were made of their represented element.

I'm also praying for world peace. It makes no significance whatsoever.

I definitely heard someone mention the element fading but I have no idea where they got there info

My point is that the protectors wouldn't be praying unless there was severe doubt in their mind. As a rest it makes it look like Umarak is a very formidable opponent, his transformation into destroyer mode seems to show this as well

I want to point out that during the battle with Kulta, Ekimu shoots at Kulta, Kulta sees this and covers, and during that time Ekimu jumps. Kulta definitely had an opprotunity to attack. Ekimu didn't win by "luck" as you say. He won by skill and sheer power, and this is WITHOUT the Mask of Creation, which Kulta was wearing at the time, mind you.

From what little we've seen/heard from Umarak, he chases a bunch of legendary elemental animals, and he has yet to succeed in capturing any of them. He's had millenia to do so. If anything, he's about as skillful at doing his job as Tom is at catching Jerry. :stuck_out_tongue:

Of course, we must take into account Umarak's ability to disappear into the shadows, so yes he might be powerful, but I wouldn't say he's "Hit six Toa that are prepared for battle and break their masks with that one single hit" powerful, and that's what Ekimu beat. Single handedly I might add.

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The original debate partner returns :smile:

He doesn't cover, he gets hammered in the face by 6 pellets. Before he can react Ekimu smashes his face (once again) with a hammer, removing the mask. All because Kulta was focused on Tahu and cackling because he thought he had won

These legendary creatures I expect are very good at hiding in their own elements.
Efficiency doesn't equal power.

Voldemort never caught harry potter but was the most powerful wizard alive. Something everyone accepted. He wasn't weak.

Now imagine trying to find the literal essence of the jungle element (year) in a jungle when all he wants to do is escape you. Very difficult.

Umarak does indeed catch a creature (Ketar), as you kindly pointed out for me.
Thank you for reading :smile:

He may not be physically more powerful, but I bet he's strong, he dwarfs Kulta as a set in both height and overall bulk to height ratio I would say. Ekimu got lucky, he seized one small chance and it miraculously worked. LUCK

But Umarak has probably got other powers than just drifting into shadows, e.g uniting. Whilst Kulta just has physical power

And strength won't help Kulta if Umarak disappears into shadows and reappears suddenly to attack whilst Kulta is unprepared.

Which were like little flies to him, not to mention before that he looks at Ekimu with a confused look rather than trying to kill him. So we have a total of three instances he had a chance to hit Ekimu.

Also, I think that says a lot about Ekimu's skill as a warrior, being able to keep the enemy distracted and open for that long.

That doesn't excuse the fact that Umarak has failed to do what he was made to do for the whole entirety of existence. If anything, that shows his lack of skills as a hunter, since he's so awful at tracking them down and capturing them.

This is completely irrelevant.

Not if you were a hunter made as a hunter trained as a hunter. If you can't do your job, then you're probably not skilled at it. Yeah, shots are being fired.

NO, he used SKILL. What part of that do you not understand? Skill is just as important as power.

Finally, an actual substantial point that isn't just made up. Yes, he can use the shadows, but at the same time if he could do that then he should easily be able to sneak up on the creatures. Sadly he doesn't seem to be good in that regard either because well... they're still flying/running/creaturing around.

If Kulta were skilled as a warrior? Not only would he sense Umarak behind him, but he'd destroyer him with the power supplied by the MoCo. But nah, Kulta isn't skilled as a warrior, so he would lose.

Do you know who IS skilled as a warrior? Ekimu. He doesn't have a hammer that shoots (useless for making masks) and a shield for show my friend.

You better believe I'm getting passionate about this. XD

Not dragging myself into this (I don't really know why this is important to be honest) but I don't think this point should be glossed over. The reasons Ekimu beat Kulta so quickly was due to the Toa holding Kulta in place and the timeframe of the animations which have affected the official canon greatly. Who knows, maybe the graphic novel will have a longer battle. 1v1 on Final Destination I think Ekimu would have lost against Kulta whether he was empowered or not. However the Toa distracted and slowed Kulta down enough that Ekimu could deliver the final blow.

Umarak and his effectiveness at catching the creatures is questionable. Although he is stated to have been created during the formation of Okoto we don't know how long he has actually been active.

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