Should the Toa's Gender Be Changed? (More female team members?) [Worldbuilding] [Pitch]

[Jitil824]

@IllustriousVar

I don’t see why not! But I’m also unsure how this directly ties to the discussion of gender.

See my earlier post:

@JediTimeLord824

Now that is an idea I like! It’s the best of both worlds, so there can be, theoretically a girl Lewa, Tahu, Kopaka, Onua and Pohatu, but still keeping the original characters! Okay, this is my favorite idea put forward.

[SirKeksalot]

@IllustriousVar

This change is directly tied to how we wish to develop the character.

And gender affects development…how? Yeah, boys and girls tend to act slightly differently, but when we’re talking about a specific set of personality traits for a character, that’s not really a factor. Lewa is adventurous, high-strung, and laid-back. What effect would him being a girl have on this?

@IllustriousVar

See:

G2 failed in that respect not only because the characters sucked, but because they weren’t true to the original versions. Pohatu simply was not Pohatu in any regard but his name. He didn’t act a thing like Pohatu, and thus, labeling him as such is generally pointless.

@IllustriousVar

I still don’t quite see how the gender of these characters is implicit of a total rewrite of their personalities. Can you explain?

To quote your earlier post:

@IllustriousVar

The shaping of the Toa’s gender will not make a dramatic alteration to their personality, nor will it suddenly skyrocket sales for the line. However, it is a first step in forming a more distinct and fleshed out personality for this character that we have yet to see before.

So it sounds like you’re saying it somehow contributes to a major change. But I ask again: how does gender affect the characters themselves?

@IllustriousVar

Many in this topic believe that changing the genders would, in fact, switch up the dynamic significantly.

Well, to put it bluntly, they’re wrong. Not in an opinion-y sort of way, but in the sense that gender just does not have an impact on the story. Making X character a girl now doesn’t suddenly change who they are or how they act.

@IllustriousVar

You yourself have attributed the change to a rewrite of the character.

I have not. I’ve been responding to your posts with the understanding that you were attributing the change to part of a rework of the character; which is something that doesn’t need to happen.

@IllustriousVar

With this in mind, I fail to see how this doesn’t open up new ventures or make potential improvements to these characters.

Aside from just remaking these characters as different characters entirely (which is problematic for reasons I’ve already stated), it has no effect. Ok, Lewa’s a girl now. Whoop-dee-flipping-doo-dah. This affects the plot in no way at all. The character is not better off for it, and the change to the gender ratio is just as easily accomplished with adding a new character like Voriki and having them be a girl.

@IllustriousVar

I don’t necessarily think the thought behind changing Lewa’s element was incorrect though. They were trying to tie Lewa’s element to his environment in a way that makes more sense, it’s a path of logic that I feel works, however the solution is not one that I would have proposed.

But his environment already made sense for air. Le-Koro is physically high up in the air. It’s a fitting environment for the element of Air. The change wasn’t necessary.

@IllustriousVar

This is why we changed the element of earth to encompass plantlife as well as soil

Was that not for the sake of differentiating it from Stone?

[AwesomeJoel27]

@IllustriousVar

(I do agree that Tahu and Kopaka’s personalities as they are currently are fairly deeply rooted in the testosterone-driven masculine persona they like to give off when near each other, however I find that the majority of the other Toa personalities are not so distinctly tied to their gender).

I just imagined a tsundere Kopaka, it was a mistake…

[Matanui606]

@IllustriousVar

But you need to actually give me an argument that justifies this opinion because the presumptuous assumption that the gender ratio of G1 was one of it’s strengths

I wouldn’t say it was a strength, but I also wouldn’t call it a weakness. It was a design choice, one that I don’t really see much reason in changing. I have yet to see a real explanation of why it is a weakness, you say it will open up new story possibilities but not all of those are necessarily good. The only new story possibilities I can see from a gender switch is some sort of awkwardness between the male and female Toa and some shipping. But the awkwardness seems counterproductive to the idea of unity, shipping is weird with the fact that they refer to each other as “Brother” and “Sister” not to mention people will ship characters regardless of what you do, so my question is what sort of positive effect do you expect this to have in their team dynamic? Because I can’t see one.

[Jakura_Nuva]

@AwesomeJoel27

I just imagined a tsundere Kopaka, it was a mistake…

dangit joel

@Matanui606

shipping is weird with the fact that they refer to each other as “Brother” and “Sister” not to mention people will ship characters regardless of what you do

My church refers to each other within the congregation as “brother” and “sister” regardless of relationship because we’re all united as children of God. “Brother” and “sister” are also terms sometimes used between those of the same race - again, regardless of relationship. And there are other reasons, too. Heck, close friends may say that the other is “like a brother/sister” to them.
I assume it’s the exact same case with the Toa.

[IllustriousVar]

I’m off to work for the next 8 hours, so my responses are going to slow down to a crawl here.

But I just want everyone to know that I’m extremely happy with this topic and I want to encourage everyone to continue giving their thoughts and challenging what we have to say. You are helping us shape this project in ways we didn’t realize would happen when we initially pitched this idea, and I haven’t felt this in-tune with the community in years.

I don’t want anyone to get the impression that just because I disagree with their opinion that I’m not listening to what you have to say, you’re making me think hard here about what I want out of this project and I want you all to be aware of that.

As an addition, I’m going to add a poll to this topic to get a basic gauge on where everyone’s stance is. I’m curious to see how everyone feels towards this change, even those who are just lurking and not posting.

(Sorry @King_Ved, but I’m going to hijack your topic here)

[Matanui606]

@Jakura_Nuva

My church (and others) refers to each other within the congregation as “brother” and “sister” regardless of relationship because we’re all children of God. “Brother” and “sister” are also terms often used between those of the same race - again, regardless of relationship. And there are other reasons, too; it could be something as simple as close friends. So I assume it’s the exact same case with the Toa.

My church does as well, and I understand that many close friends refer to eachother as Brother/Duster, however this usually stops once they become romantically entangled, now I’m sure the same could be applied to the Toa, but I still don’t see any real advantage to it. People are going to ship characters regardless of gender or what is Canon, I don’t see how adding those relationships will add to the story in a positive way.

[SirKeksalot]

@AwesomeJoel27

I just imagined a tsundere Kopaka, it was a mistake…

“I-it’s not like I feel actual emotions for you, Pohatu-chan…b-baka!”

@Jakura_Nuva

I assume it’s the exact same case with the Toa.

I always thought it was about that being on the same team effectively made them family. They were “siblings” because of circumstance.

[DarkHenrik]

question here, how would anyone feel if Lewa had a “gender ambiguous” appearance? By that i mean that just question wise, how would anyone feel if Lewa’s appearance was basicly the type that makes it difficoult for others who don’t know him to identify him as ither male or female.

[Holi]

i agree with making Lewa have an ambiguous appearance

[Jakura_Nuva]

@Matanui606

however this usually stops once they become romantically entangled, now I’m sure the same could be applied to the Toa, but I still don’t see any real advantage to it. People are going to ship characters regardless of gender or what is Canon, I don’t see how adding those relationships will add to the story in a positive way.

I still don’t think it’s weird for the Toa to refer to each as brother and sister, for the reasons I listed above. Maybe if two were to enter the relationship the terms would drop simply so things don’t get weird, but it’s not like the other Toa would then stop referring to the two as their brother and sister. Again, it’s not literally family - it’s a close bond likely tied to their race, shared destiny, etc. Two Toa entering a relationship would effectively be exchanging this close bond for an even closer bond. A romantic bond.

//Cue Elton John’s “Can You Feel the Love Tonight”//

Now, when it comes to how the relationship would positively add to the story… oh, gosh. I believe Kahi and Eljay debated the cheez-its out of this a while ago. I personally think such a relationship would have both positives and negatives in the story, but it’s not something I could effectively discuss at the moment. There are others who’ve made great cases for both sides, you might be able to find some by searching the boards.

@SirKeksalot

I always thought it was about that being on the same team effectively made them family. They were “siblings” because of circumstance.

That’s definitely a more likely case. I was just thinking in broader terms.

@SirKeksalot

“I-it’s not like I feel actual emotions for you, Pohatu-chan…b-baka!”

u need to stop

@DarkHenrik

question here, how would anyone feel if Lewa had a “gender ambiguous” appearance? By that i mean that just question wise, how would anyone feel if Lewa’s appearance was basicly the type that makes it difficoult for others who don’t know him to identify him as ither male or female.

I mean, that seems to take an unnecessary step. For starters, because the characters are minifigs. Secondly, because a character can have a unique body type without having to be “gender ambiguous”. I already imagine Lewa having a slimmer, more agile physique than a Toa like Tahu or Kopaka.

@IllustriousVar

Let’s hypothetically say we wanted to change the gender of one of our traditionally male Toa characters, who should it be?

We at TTV personally feel Lewa and Pohatu are good contenders for this, as they’re personalities are the least tied to their gender. But what do you guys think? Let us know in the poll below.

I voted Pohatu. (And ma bois Eljay and Invi are right there with me.) I think Lewa has way more personality in the first place, so making Pohatu female could open up the possibility of making the character more interesting.

That being said, I might prefer not genderbending any of the current characters. I’m not totally confident yet. But I’ll allow my current answer to stand.

[KingOfCatfish]

I would say so, and after thinking about this here is my reason, each charater is close to an embodiment of his/her element. Gali is clam like the water Kopaka cold and calculating like ice, Onua wise and strong like earth Lewa quick and enerjectic like the air, Pohute is strong and has a lot of endurance like stone, and Tahu is courageous and temperamental, in my option like fire. Lewa being energetic would corsopond better with a femal charater that Tahu, since he has a temper and traditionally men are the courageous ones in these stories.note I said traditionally, 1990-2005 era. Therefore for me it fits to have Air as a female, since the traits of these characters for well, and could be portaded by male or female, Lewa would kind of be like a more energetic Gali. This is what I see and makes sense to me.

[Sepublic22]

@DarkHenrik

question here, how would anyone feel if Lewa had a “gender ambiguous” appearance? By that i mean that just question wise, how would anyone feel if Lewa’s appearance was basicly the type that makes it difficoult for others who don’t know him to identify him as ither male or female.

So you mean making him androgynous?

[DarkHenrik]

@Sepublic22

So you mean making him androgynous?

basicly yes, though only in a physical way, like how one can’t tell the gender of a young child unless they wear gender based clothing.

but really it was meant as a question to see how others feel about it.

[IllustriousVar]

I feel like the physical appearance of a female Lewa would be fairly indistinguishable from a male one as is, to be honest.

So I guess I’d be for the idea, but really only because I don’t think it’d make much of a difference, I doubt anyone was planning on giving him long hair and a dress.

[Jakura_Nuva]

@IllustriousVar

I feel like the physical appearance of a female Lewa would be fairly indistinguishable from a male one as is, to be honest.

That depends on whether female BIONICLE characters will have distinct mammaries and etc., doesn’t it? Unless we’re talking solely about the physical minifigs. In which case Lego only has two types of body “style” anyhow: a torso piece fully painted, and a torso piece with curved paint to suggest a more feminine shape. Not sure I could see Lewa having the latter even if his concept art depicts him as having a slimmer form. Though it’s also worth noting that “slim” doesn’t equal “feminine”.

@IllustriousVar

I doubt anyone was planning on giving him long hair

I’ve made my case for a dreadlocked Lewa in the past, actually

[Jitil824]

@Jakura_Nuva

dreadlocked Lewa

No. Rasta-Lewa must not happen.

[IllustriousVar]

@Jakura_Nuva

That depends on whether female BIONICLE characters will have distinct mammaries and etc., doesn’t it? Unless we’re talking solely about the physical minifigs. In which case Lego only has two types of body “style” anyhow: a torso piece fully painted, and a torso piece with curved paint to suggest a more feminine shape. Not sure I could see Lewa have the latter even if his concept art made him slimmer in shape. Though it’s also worth noting that “slim” doesn’t equal feminine.

Yeah, so far none of the mini-figure concepts have accentuated the female figure that much and I didn’t really expect it for Lewa either. At most I’d imagine they’re would be the sloped sides of the torso to show a smaller frame, but that’s about the extent of it in my eyes.

@Jakura_Nuva

I’ve made my case for a dreadlocked Lewa in the past, actually

I’m not really sure how you’d pull that off with a minifigure though, especially when the masks will already be using the upper stud.

[Jakura_Nuva]

@IllustriousVar

I’m not really sure how you’d pull that off with a minifigure though, especially when the masks will already be using the upper stud.

Nah, I get that, I was just joking.

While I do think it’d be cool to see some of the Toa with simulated “hair”, I fully understand that it’d be fairly difficult, if not impossible to incorporate into minifig form. I initially thought there may be a way to mold hair into the back of the mask piece, but that would severely limit the usefulness of the element.

@JediTimeLord824

No. Rasta-Lewa must not happen.

“Ey, why walk when you can windfly, mon?”

[Kiixaar]

I am in favor of more female characters, but I am NOT in favor of changing the genders of any pre-established characters. I feel that it would be best to drop the Toa Mata and introduce newer characters. New characters gives us practically unlimited freedom when it comes to using new ideas.