Some thoughts on why Stone and Earth are separate elements (from within context of the BIONICLE lore)

I said this as a general statement before, but I’d say it’s not about ice and water being different things, it’s that ice powers and water powers are specialised on controlling different aspects of the same substance, along with a different set of subabilities to make them more effective at their application.

Elemental power of ice can only move around water in solid form but has the added capability of temperature control.
Elemental power of water can only affect water in its liquid form but has added capability of healing.

Then again, my model seems to be more of a hot take on this system so don’t take this to be the agreed upon definition. Makes for a pretty consistent headcanon though.

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This I agree with. The issue would be less about why Stone/Earth and Ice/Water are separate, and more why they’re called elements at all.

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I think you just answered your own question. :stuck_out_tongue:

Same chemical substance =/= “same thing”. Water and Ice interact in very different practical ways, and there’s a very clear distinction between them where the line is drawn - it’s just a distinction that doesn’t involve changing the atoms making up the substance.

Nobody has an issue with Aquaman not being able to freeze stuff or Iceman being unable to shoot water blasts, I don’t see why it suddenly becomes confusion when we talk about Bionicle. If the word “element” is throwing people off, then I’d like to direct you towards Fire, which isn’t a atomic element of any kind. :stuck_out_tongue:

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I think the great beings made earth and stone separate because they were separate tribes on Spherus Magna.
Though they left out sand, I guess maybe they didn’t want to go too overboard.

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I believe they canonically left out sand because there weren’t many deserts in the MU - it was mostly islands.

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Not sure if you were referring to me or the OP, but yes! I read it some years ago, so it’s a little bit dim in my mind now, but I did read it

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happy to know that there are some “scholars” out here, perhaps now we can effectively use the “philosophy” topic

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I think these are all very good points and I can tell you have a good understanding of philosophy of mind.

I’m inclined to agree that the interaction problem isn’t a defeater for dualism though I am not a dualist. Furthermore when we’re thinking of the juxtaposition of logical versus metaphysical possibility, it seems like, when conceptualizing of things in writing we could work with a world that is metaphysically impossible so long as it is logically impossible.

I think though I would disagree about one substance generating another. There are modern defenders of dualism (i.e. Swinburne, Crummet) who both would argue that the soul is something intrinsically generated over time in conjunction with bodies. I find this implausible, but it seems at least possible that there could be a kind of interaction between mental and physical substances which the Great Spirit robot could have formulated and maintained in order to give this interaction stability and possibility, so I guess I just don’t share the same intuitions as you about this concept.

That said your point about the Great Beings is quite good. Seems a plausible defeater or at least it makes my theory quite ad hoc. Good thoughts for the future.

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If you’re referring to me, no. I have a good friend who is an aristotlean and virtue ethicist who loves it but I’m much more of a contemporary philosophy guy.

I would say yes.

For example, in a boat race, I believe that a Toa of Water could suspend a small bump of water that a boat could jump off.

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Thank you! I haven’t read either Swinburne or Crummet (my foray into Philosophy of mind is quite recent), so I’ve got some homework to do. One thing on which I think we may be misunderstanding one another, though, is this:

The bolded word is my own edit, of course, and I highlight it to say that I don’t think this necessarily implies generation. Usually, dualists (or trialists, etc) I have read would agree that the soul is generated alongside the body (and, for Christian mortalists, ceases with it until resurrection), but might not agree that the mind is actually caused by the body. (again, from what little I have read,) the dualist verdict seems to be that neither is responsible for the creation of the other, even though they appear in seeming conjunction. Hume describes how the existence of the mind seems to mirror that of the body in its rise until maturity and decline until old age/death. Some (you and me?) might say that the body is precipitating the state of the mind( or that: “Therefore, “matter, by its structure or arrangement,” may be the cause of consciousness”), but this particular claim is arguing for the mind’s continual mirroring of the state of the body into death, so I definitely won’t try to breach that topic! (this is Hume’s Proportionality Principle, if you’re interested)

I wonder, though, if it were true that they were all different substances, how the Great Beings would develop and transfer minds like they do, and what it says about personal identity that the body can be discarded like a vehicle.

@TheJerminator But the strength of the ramp is in question. If Onua can make a ramp with dirt strong enough to guide Pohatu Nuva running fast (not usual with dirt), can Gali make a ramp strong enough to hold up, not a boat, but, say, Pohatu, on its surface? (similarly unusual with water)
@optimus_priminski Yeah definitely! I just checked the topic and it’s locked, but if it opens back up I’m down to participate.

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I would say it would be similar to a boat on a wave. Jetskis can ramp off a wave in the real world. The powers of a Toa of Water would just be to hold the “wave” stationary.

Though you do pose an interesting, larger, question: could a Toa of Water alter the “hardness” of water to support a Toa?

My instinct is to say no, but the concept was never really explored in canon.

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I can 100% guarantee that the writers didn’t think about it this deeply.

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It certainly would be a helpful asset to a Toa of Water. Hahli pushing the Barraki around is a funny image.
@Winger I have no doubt. That’s why we’re here!

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But the thing is: if there aren’t answers, there aren’t answers. No amount of talking philosophy will create one.

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I don’t expect to get a canon answer, nor do I want one. I just enjoy discussing it

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This is already well within the powers of a Toa of Water.

The question is if she can alter either the density or the surface tension of water to allow a Toa to walk on it.

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Well, I understand the surface tension question—I brought it up

I didn’t mean using riptides and such to manipulate the Barraki, I meant creating an essential wall underwater that cannot be swam through. You could push the barraki around with such a force, differently to the actual way in which Hahli used her powers in the story

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