Star Wars: The Last Jedi

It was close to midnight and I really didn’t want an argue, so I used the first things that came to mind to finish it asap.

Basically I think that the movie’s attempt to subvert our expectations weakened the over all story. @Holi believes that the movie’s attempt to subvert our expectations worked to strengthen the story. We disagree on that, but it’s okay to do so.


That doesn’t count. That was Ryan wanting to twist our expectations.

Same here. He wasn’t going for a RotJ rehash, but his expectations thing.

Same happened in Rogue One. Does this mean it was a rehash of Empire?

People are talking about the throne room scene; I think of of the main problems is that in ROTJ that was part of the final battle; in TLJ the saved the climactic boss battle for the middle of a trilogy.

It’s like if marvel had done something as huge as endgame earlier in like phase 2; it just wouldn’t have worked at all having a grand scale confrontation twice in the same story.


I think it 100% counts. Whether or not it was intentional, it’s an obvious similarity.

My argument isn’t that that was intentional, but it’s there. Also, I’m decently certain that this one is far too perfect for it to be just coincidence.

No, no, no… Not a simple Star Destroyer, but a grand, “super” Star Destroyer. You have the Executor in RotJ and the Supremacy (call the movie whatever, I feel like that’s a far better name for a ship).

Which, if you look at Rian Johnson’s “obsession with subversion,” is kind of a neat thing to do. He killed Snoke, made a lot of people (including myself) disappointed, but now we have no idea how this next movie is going to end. They already used their RotJ ending, what are they going to do, use RotS’? We just have no idea what can happen here, because they have no more Star Wars movies to pay homage to. That’s a scary feeling, and some are upset about it, but it’s kind of enthralling at the same time.


Man I already kinda forgot the context of it.
No, it was counting if he was doing it to rehash RotJ. But he did it to subvert expectations.
Dude. I don’t care if ones tge most advanced version of the other. Their still considered the same thing by the average fan.

Yes it does

Hey, Rise of Skywalker is going to be nothing but a blank screen for 3 hours to subvert our expectations.


I’d be down; they can’t kill Ackbar again

Honestly, that’s the thing about Last Jedi that irks me the most: a fan-favorite character (as well as my favorite) goes down with no heroism, no sacrifice, and no consequence to the plot. He was literally named “Mr. Star Wars” by Wookiepedia that year. Instead, we have Holdo, a character the movie intentionally sets up for us to hate, having one of the coolest deaths, most epic sacrifices in the entire franchise.

What if Nien Nunb is next? Will he die for no reason?

Lando is safe from a meaningless death, I’m certain. He’ll matter, whether he ends up alive or dead by the end.


I know! It bugs me to no end! He’s a veteran of 2 wars, the clone wars, and the rebellion against the empire, just to die with no fanfare in the resistance?

I don’t get it.

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Well, hey. Not everybody in real life who deserves a glorious end gets one, do they? Ackbar’s death has never bothered me, because really, it is a realistic look at warfare. People die suddenly and sometimes with no fanfare at all. It’s not fair, but it’s life.

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No consequence to the plot of this movie, but his death rallies the entire population of Mon Cala to the side of the Resistance from what we can tell from the Journey to The Rise of Skywalker comics that have been coming out. His son Aftab will be leading the charge.


How exactly does the movie “set us up to hate Holdo”? By showing her putting reckless-and-trigger-happy-flyboy-pilot Poe Dameron in his place? Cuz that’s something Leia was already doing in the opening scenes of the movie. Holdo was simply doing her best to honor the wishes of a friend she’s known for almost 40 years (as established in the excellent Leia Princess of Alderaan YA novel).


Maybe she’s not set up to be hated but she’s definitely hated. Nobody likes her.

That’s quite the blanket statement. You may be hearing a lot of hardcore Star Wars enthusiasts complain endlessly online about characters like Holdo in The Last Jedi, but that doesn’t mean that “nobody likes her”. Statements like that are hyperbolic, inflammatory and very hard to prove. I for one really like Holdo’s character (mainly thanks to that prequel novel I previously mentioned).

All that being said, people’s reaction to Holdo in TLJ is definitely worth analyzing. Why did so many of these super-fans appear to hate Holdo’s guts? I don’t have an answer right now, but it’s something that I’ll be looking into.


Who wants to bet that to subvert our expectations, they’ll just air the holiday special instead of the Rise of Skywalker


guess I’m nobody

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As far as the audience is aware, for the first part of the movie, Holdo is leading the last of the Rebellion to their deaths with no plan. It gets to the point where Poe has to lead a mutiny, to save the resistance from Holdo. She’s set up as an antagonist, arguably a villain, for the first half of the movie – definitely not someone the audience is supposed to like.



She was set up as an antagonist. You’re not really supposed to like the antagonist, at least not in this case.

Okay, not only does this make my day, but I’m finally excited for this movie. I am now nearly certain that Aftab is the Mon Calamari I witnessed in the trailer, and I’m elated.

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Ditto. I like this alot.

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