and so, it begins.
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so many facts packed into one topic…I love it 
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This is very interested report, and I’m so fun to read this! 
I agree the contents almost all. Thank you write this.
I agree with most of this, but I would like to add one thing.
Perhaps Dag is right and Nikila is an “early form of the Toa”.
AND I think she or a Toa like her may be the source of the later Lhikan and Metru.
(This is because if you look closely at Nikila’s armor, you can see similarities to the Metru-type in various places. What I personally find most so is the area from her torso to her thighs.)
(This is consistent with the speculation that Krakua is an apparent descendant of Nikila; I believe that Metu-type and Krakua-type are both separate types derived from Nikila-type.)
"500 years is not “thousands of years.”
This is fantastic resarch!
I have always wondered if Tuyet was a member of Lhikan’s original team, but now I am convinced that she was.
I don’t know it becomes canon, but at least my “headcanon” is that her armor is very similar to Lhikan’s (Metru-type).
Oh yeah
ADD:
I have one hypothesis about this. it’s a very simple though.
The NuiStone certainly has some terrific features, but in other words, it’s just a palm-sized crystal unless you turn it on.
While Toa team members do indeed often spend a considerable amount of time together, they are not forced into group activities like death game participants, but are exactly like us, able to separate and have private time if necessary.
I don’t think anyone would be overly suspicious of her and the stone just because she was carrying one small stone, unless she activated it, and even less likely to be suspicious if she was hiding one or so of the stones from them under the guise of naturalness.
Also, if you were to ask teammate, “What’s that crystal?”, If she simply replies “I take it from my homeland, it’s a special thing for my heart,” he or she may to be satisfied and leave.
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Ever since the Helryx contest, I’ve been influenced by the head-canon that Krakua took a form similar to her, which would make sense since she trained him before he became a Toa. But, who knows, maybe he was influenced by both Helryx and Nidhiki, or even maybe Nidhiki was influenced by being saved by Helryx at some point.
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Please forgive my pathetic English. lol
The views you have on Nidhiki and Krakua are excellent.
Because they’re both from the Tran Krom Peninsula.
Perhaps the two have encountered each other at least once.
(Surprisingly, De-Matorans don’t like noise, and Nidhiki is using volitak to get rid of his own sound.)
Uh… this seems to mean that Mangai team is similar to lhikan,doesn’t it?
Here’s my argument.
maybe tuyet is not exactly Metru Build(with metru torso)
but I think she is similar build to Metru Build.
At least there’s as much difference as teri’s Hagah team and Metru team.
(We’ve already seen some metru-like build suggestions during Hagah Contest debate.)
Shoulder width, proportion, etc.
At least it won’t be similar to Inika.
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I agree and think so!
And I think the Inika-type is one of early types of Toa, and Jovan was offspring of that type.
Inika, mahri, and Phantoka/mistika has looks this type, but I think because is they are special background Toa.
This is my hypothesis!
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Yes, I agree with this.
After all, I’m looking at tuyet as a Metru “similar”(or like) Build.
(so, I don’t think tuyet is nokama with different mask.)
After all, as Greg told there was no toa’s base model
so for me, "Metru is standard " is not head canon.
but, It’s true that there must have been many metru or mata “similar” build toa.
(‘same’ and ‘similar’ seem trivial, but it’s a big difference.I mean, it’s more narrow shoulder than Inika. lol)
MU is big universe, there will be a lot of different build toa.
Whatever it may be, GB has definitely designed and created toa in the form of Mata, Metru and Inika.
Yes, maybe Orde could be more like Metru or Inika.
Since he is one of toa made by GB themself, so he was prototype.
I think he unlike Helryx, (which was the beginning of the Mata style) would have been different form
They’re constantly exploring new things.
I carefully question that Inika-type is early type of toa.
Perhaps they designed different type of toa through some trial and error.
Probably in the order of Mata-Metru-Inika.
we can probably say Krakua type and nikila type as transitional step.
If Inika had been an early type , Helryx should have been more Inika type Rather than Mata
Don’t you usually say that?
“The Creator makes a creature similar to himself”
Greg said great beings was Glatorian species.
Eventually, they would have made the most similar thing to Glatorians.
so I think the Inika is the most similar later prototype to Glatorian, but wouldn’t number be very small?
And they put data Inika Build, later prototype, into Red Star’s failsafe program.
Eventually, Inika type prototype was number be very small, so it was only found in a few of the early toas(lesovikk, jovan), except for Inika team, and inika type could have gradually disappeared.
(Lesovikk gave up being hero, and Jovan became a Turaga.)
Of course, I don’t think Inika type toa has disappeared at all, but I think number is relatively small.
In the end, mata and Metru Like build type toa, which is the midpoint, would have been the most visible.
And maybe they gave Artakha a mata-type blueprint(in middle of prototype toa study)
they would have instructed him to make Toa Mata.
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What I mean by Tuyet is a Metru build is that she shares the same basic frame as Lhikan, but the armor can very slightly. Not like the Toa Metru, which were the exact same, minus height differences. The Toa Mata were all Mata builds, but had slight differences in the chest, arms, etc.
I argued during the Hagah discussions that the Metru build definition should be extended to custom built torsos that fit the aesthetics and proportions, so while this is definitely a possibility, it doesn’t change that she would be a “Metru build” in my view.
However, it might be best for custom built Metru-like torsos to be reserved for those transitional stages between prototype and the standard Metru. It’s just something to think about.
Not if the Great Beings were testing various versions, which seems to be the case.
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Tuyet should be a Hoseryx build
Change my mind
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Your version is definitely unique, and I quite like it, but I think I would prefer him to look more like Krakua than anything. As a proof of concept I made this:
Due to the parts I had, there’s a bit more black than I would’ve hoped, and it kinds of makes him look evil, but at the same time it fits with his character of attacking from the shadows.
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I think you’re jumping too fast to exact conclusions here. Greg answered with “it’s safe to assume” regarding all Mangai.
I agree that - also taking the information about their formation into consideration - this leaves enough of a loophole to give some of them non-Metru builds.
Tuyet being part of Lhikan’s original team also is conclusive.
However, since the quote mentioned above applies to the Mangai, not Lhikan’s original team, I do not think one can 100% say “Tuyet has a Metru build” based on that. It would merely be likely that if you pick a random Toa Mangai and say “Metru build”, chances of you being right are higher than you being wrong.
Also by the way - did you look into Legacy of Evil regarding the Mangai’s formation? I’m currently not at home, so can’t look myself, but I have a certain… feeling… like there might have been something of relevance mentioned there as well. Not sure about it, though.
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Right, which is why I immediately followed up with my doubts about them all being Metru build because some of them were from different places and just called to help with the Kanohi Dragon. Maybe they all were Metru builds, but it can’t simply be for the reason that they were a team. Again, it seems reasonable to assume that Lhikan’s original team at the very least were the same build.
The Mangai included Lhikan’s original team, and we agree Tuyet was on that original team.
I didn’t bother checking because I figured Greg quotes sufficed, but I’ll do that right now.
EDIT: It doesn’t appear to have much. All it confirms is that until the Kanohi Dragon attack, there were no Toa in Metru Nui, then all 11 Toa Mangai showed up at once. This means that, if what Greg said is true that other Toa were just added on to Lhikan’s original team, they were recruited on the way and all arrived together. The only thing that stood out to me was that when they first arrive, Dume calls Lhikan and Nidhiki by name before they even introduce themselves. It’s obvious that Dume already knew Lhikan because he saved him as a Matoran and probably had a hand in him becoming Toa, but how did he already know Nidhiki, especially if he wasn’t on Lhikan’s original team and was just a last minute recruit on the way there?
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We do not know how large Lhikan’s team was, though. Giving at least the possibility that in fact in this team Metru builds might not even have been predominant.
Therefore, we cannot 100% assume Tuyet specifically has a Metru build.
Also another thought in this regard - we know their history does not go back to their becoming Toa, as the Nui-Stone history strongly implies Tuyet and Lhikan hailing from different regions. Plus Lhikan was the sole survivor of the Makoki Stone guards, so they only met afterwards (at the earliest 7000 years ago).
Thus Tuyet has the same chance of being a non-Metru build as any other individual Toa Mangai.
Hm, ok.
I see three possibilities:
a) Dume knew who was currently available at the place he asked for help and requested specific Toa (also explaining why it just so happened that 4 Toa of Ice showed up - alternatively this could be explained by specifying the problem in the request (but I’m unsure whether in Legacy of Evil it didn’t sound as if Lhikan had not really a specific idea why exactly the were summoned))
b) Lhikan’s Team was actually not a permanent, but a fluctuating team, and so Nidhiki might have been a part of it for a couple years or so already, but not for long; long enough, though, for Dume to be aware of him
c) Turaga in general or just Dume actually keep records of what Toa are active in the universe, and thus can recognize individuals
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How large the team was is irrelevant. What matters is that Tuyet was on it and Nidhiki most likely was not. While this is a good argument against Greg saying most if not all the Mangai had similar builds, I don’t think it holds for Tuyet specifically.
Right, this means Lhikan’s original team (not the one guarding the Makoki stones, the one before the formation of all 11 Mangai, a little confusing) would have been formed sometime between 7,000 and 4,000 years ago, and taking Lhikan’s phrasing of “thousands of years” into account, the window probably narrows to sometime between 7,000 and 5,500 years ago.
And not only does the Nui Stone strongly suggest Lhikan and Tuyet are from different regions, but The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet seems to confirm this. When discussing the Nui Stone with Lhikan, Tuyet repeatedly refers to “my homeland,” not “our homeland.” So while this alone opens the possibility of Tuyet being a different build from either Lhikan or Nidhiki, I still don’t think the Greg quote can be completely disregarded.
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by permanent or fluctuating, but they weren’t always together. Tuyet was back at her homeland right before being summoned to Metru Nui, and after the Kanohi Dragon was contained, many of them went their separate ways. What seems to have happened is that they were team that formed only when necessary, but during their off time managed their own homelands.
The reason I say Nidhiki was probably not on the original team is because Lhikan wasn’t close to him and Tuyet didn’t like him. It doesn’t seem like they had been teammates for long, or good ones at least.
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Probably due to Nidhiki’s combat characteristics.
Think of his background, he enjoyed attacking in dark.
That may not have made his personality very intimate, and he was selfish enough to betray his brother later.
I think he wants to get out of Tren Krom Peninsula that why he join mangai.
Of course, I accept yout hypothesis that Tuyet has known lhikan longer than Nidhiki.
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Ok, I have to ask then why you think that?
I see Lhikan’s original team as only being necessarily impacted by Greg’s quote if it was large enough that a likeliness for a Metru build for any of the Mangai would also have to be present here.
Example:
The Mangai are 11 Toa. You could safely assume any of them being Metru builds if, say, 9 out of the 11 are Metru builds. You’d most of the time be right, then.
Now let’s assume Lhikan’s team had only 4 members.
Lhikan is a Metru build.
This leaves three, of these three, if 2 Toa Mangai as per this example are not Metru builds, 2 could be non-Metru builds.
Thus it’s not safe to assume that a randomly picked Toa from Lhikan’s original team is a Metru build.
Therefore, in this example, we can not say “Tuyet is a Metru build” simply because she’s on Lhikan’s original team. She might be a Metru build. But she’s not necessarily one.
Of course, Tuyet being a Metru build always only stays a possibility, no matter the numbers, as we cannot definitely link “Metru build” to “Lhikan’s team”, only to “Toa Mangai”.
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This is where I disagree. I don’t think Greg’s statement is impacted at all by how many of the Mangai were from the original team. Let me break down the quote.
Speaking of Naho (and the other Toa Mangai for that matter), did their armor look similar to Lhikan’s, or did everyone have a different design? (judging from the fact that other toa teams have similar armor) Would you be able to confirm which masks they wore/what elements they controlled?
At this point I haven’t given any thought to what masks or powers they had. But it is reasonable to assume that their armor would have looked like Lhikan’s.
What Greg probably had in mind when making this statement (as suggested in the question) was simply team cohesion. The Mata all have the same build, the Metru all have the same build, and the Inika all have the same build. Outside of lore, it’s just looks aesthetically pleasing.
However, since Matoran that become Toa are infuenced by the Toa they’ve seen before, this implies that Toa from the same regions are more likely to have the same build than Toa who are not since they likely were influenced by the same Toa.
For the Mangai, we know it was Lhikan’s original team plus extra Toa. We don’t know how many were initially on the team, but it’s safe to assume Tuyet was and Nidhiki wasn’t, which for the purposes of this discussion is all we really need to know (maybe Naho too, but there’s very little info on her, nothing is conclusive).
Yes, Tuyet and Lhikan are from different regions, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have the same build, and the Greg quote suggests they do. Was Greg wrong to assume they all have the same or even similar builds simply because they were a team? Definitely. Does that mean this answer should be disregarded? No. Nothing directly contradicts it. In the context of the rest canon, it just means we can’t be entirely sure about the Toa that were recruited to fight the Kanohi Dragon, but we can pretty much say the original team had the same build, which includes Tuyet. Not because they’re all from the same region (they aren’t), but because Greg says its safe to assume that. If Greg’s reasoning was team cohesion, I highly doubt one off members called to help for one specific task and then went back home right after should be counted as team members.
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Sorry, but I still do not understand where you get that from?
The question in the quote is about the Toa Mangai, not Lhikan’s team. Hence why doesn’t this apply to Lhikan’s original team?:
This is entirely correct, but neither do they absolutely have to have the same build. It is possible they have the same build. Likely, even. But not absolutely certain.
I am not saying the quote is only concerned with or only applies to Lhikan’s team. It applies to all 11 of them. However, I think there is enough to doubt the validity of the quote concerning the recruited Toa because they weren’t part of the team for long. Again, if the reason for Greg saying that was simply team cohesion, why should these Toa be cohesive with Lhikan’s team? But Lhikan’s team, having been around for a few thousand years, is much more likely to be internally cohesive, and so I think the quote definitely holds for them at least, but it’s up in the air whether it actually does hold for all 11.