The Evolution of Toa Armor

Your version is definitely unique, and I quite like it, but I think I would prefer him to look more like Krakua than anything. As a proof of concept I made this:

Due to the parts I had, there’s a bit more black than I would’ve hoped, and it kinds of makes him look evil, but at the same time it fits with his character of attacking from the shadows.

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I think you’re jumping too fast to exact conclusions here. Greg answered with “it’s safe to assume” regarding all Mangai.

I agree that - also taking the information about their formation into consideration - this leaves enough of a loophole to give some of them non-Metru builds.

Tuyet being part of Lhikan’s original team also is conclusive.

However, since the quote mentioned above applies to the Mangai, not Lhikan’s original team, I do not think one can 100% say “Tuyet has a Metru build” based on that. It would merely be likely that if you pick a random Toa Mangai and say “Metru build”, chances of you being right are higher than you being wrong.


Also by the way - did you look into Legacy of Evil regarding the Mangai’s formation? I’m currently not at home, so can’t look myself, but I have a certain… feeling… like there might have been something of relevance mentioned there as well. Not sure about it, though.

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i personally think that @Bukkey’s is the best version, but that may change

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Right, which is why I immediately followed up with my doubts about them all being Metru build because some of them were from different places and just called to help with the Kanohi Dragon. Maybe they all were Metru builds, but it can’t simply be for the reason that they were a team. Again, it seems reasonable to assume that Lhikan’s original team at the very least were the same build.

The Mangai included Lhikan’s original team, and we agree Tuyet was on that original team.

I didn’t bother checking because I figured Greg quotes sufficed, but I’ll do that right now.

EDIT: It doesn’t appear to have much. All it confirms is that until the Kanohi Dragon attack, there were no Toa in Metru Nui, then all 11 Toa Mangai showed up at once. This means that, if what Greg said is true that other Toa were just added on to Lhikan’s original team, they were recruited on the way and all arrived together. The only thing that stood out to me was that when they first arrive, Dume calls Lhikan and Nidhiki by name before they even introduce themselves. It’s obvious that Dume already knew Lhikan because he saved him as a Matoran and probably had a hand in him becoming Toa, but how did he already know Nidhiki, especially if he wasn’t on Lhikan’s original team and was just a last minute recruit on the way there?

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We do not know how large Lhikan’s team was, though. Giving at least the possibility that in fact in this team Metru builds might not even have been predominant.

Therefore, we cannot 100% assume Tuyet specifically has a Metru build.

Also another thought in this regard - we know their history does not go back to their becoming Toa, as the Nui-Stone history strongly implies Tuyet and Lhikan hailing from different regions. Plus Lhikan was the sole survivor of the Makoki Stone guards, so they only met afterwards (at the earliest 7000 years ago).

Thus Tuyet has the same chance of being a non-Metru build as any other individual Toa Mangai.


Hm, ok.

I see three possibilities:
a) Dume knew who was currently available at the place he asked for help and requested specific Toa (also explaining why it just so happened that 4 Toa of Ice showed up - alternatively this could be explained by specifying the problem in the request (but I’m unsure whether in Legacy of Evil it didn’t sound as if Lhikan had not really a specific idea why exactly the were summoned))
b) Lhikan’s Team was actually not a permanent, but a fluctuating team, and so Nidhiki might have been a part of it for a couple years or so already, but not for long; long enough, though, for Dume to be aware of him
c) Turaga in general or just Dume actually keep records of what Toa are active in the universe, and thus can recognize individuals

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How large the team was is irrelevant. What matters is that Tuyet was on it and Nidhiki most likely was not. While this is a good argument against Greg saying most if not all the Mangai had similar builds, I don’t think it holds for Tuyet specifically.

Right, this means Lhikan’s original team (not the one guarding the Makoki stones, the one before the formation of all 11 Mangai, a little confusing) would have been formed sometime between 7,000 and 4,000 years ago, and taking Lhikan’s phrasing of “thousands of years” into account, the window probably narrows to sometime between 7,000 and 5,500 years ago.

And not only does the Nui Stone strongly suggest Lhikan and Tuyet are from different regions, but The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet seems to confirm this. When discussing the Nui Stone with Lhikan, Tuyet repeatedly refers to “my homeland,” not “our homeland.” So while this alone opens the possibility of Tuyet being a different build from either Lhikan or Nidhiki, I still don’t think the Greg quote can be completely disregarded.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by permanent or fluctuating, but they weren’t always together. Tuyet was back at her homeland right before being summoned to Metru Nui, and after the Kanohi Dragon was contained, many of them went their separate ways. What seems to have happened is that they were team that formed only when necessary, but during their off time managed their own homelands.

The reason I say Nidhiki was probably not on the original team is because Lhikan wasn’t close to him and Tuyet didn’t like him. It doesn’t seem like they had been teammates for long, or good ones at least.

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Probably due to Nidhiki’s combat characteristics.
Think of his background, he enjoyed attacking in dark.

That may not have made his personality very intimate, and he was selfish enough to betray his brother later.

I think he wants to get out of Tren Krom Peninsula that why he join mangai.

Of course, I accept yout hypothesis that Tuyet has known lhikan longer than Nidhiki.

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Ok, I have to ask then why you think that?

I see Lhikan’s original team as only being necessarily impacted by Greg’s quote if it was large enough that a likeliness for a Metru build for any of the Mangai would also have to be present here.

Example:
The Mangai are 11 Toa. You could safely assume any of them being Metru builds if, say, 9 out of the 11 are Metru builds. You’d most of the time be right, then.

Now let’s assume Lhikan’s team had only 4 members.
Lhikan is a Metru build.
This leaves three, of these three, if 2 Toa Mangai as per this example are not Metru builds, 2 could be non-Metru builds.
Thus it’s not safe to assume that a randomly picked Toa from Lhikan’s original team is a Metru build.

Therefore, in this example, we can not say “Tuyet is a Metru build” simply because she’s on Lhikan’s original team. She might be a Metru build. But she’s not necessarily one.

Of course, Tuyet being a Metru build always only stays a possibility, no matter the numbers, as we cannot definitely link “Metru build” to “Lhikan’s team”, only to “Toa Mangai”.

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This is where I disagree. I don’t think Greg’s statement is impacted at all by how many of the Mangai were from the original team. Let me break down the quote.

Speaking of Naho (and the other Toa Mangai for that matter), did their armor look similar to Lhikan’s, or did everyone have a different design? (judging from the fact that other toa teams have similar armor) Would you be able to confirm which masks they wore/what elements they controlled?

At this point I haven’t given any thought to what masks or powers they had. But it is reasonable to assume that their armor would have looked like Lhikan’s.

What Greg probably had in mind when making this statement (as suggested in the question) was simply team cohesion. The Mata all have the same build, the Metru all have the same build, and the Inika all have the same build. Outside of lore, it’s just looks aesthetically pleasing.

However, since Matoran that become Toa are infuenced by the Toa they’ve seen before, this implies that Toa from the same regions are more likely to have the same build than Toa who are not since they likely were influenced by the same Toa.

For the Mangai, we know it was Lhikan’s original team plus extra Toa. We don’t know how many were initially on the team, but it’s safe to assume Tuyet was and Nidhiki wasn’t, which for the purposes of this discussion is all we really need to know (maybe Naho too, but there’s very little info on her, nothing is conclusive).

Yes, Tuyet and Lhikan are from different regions, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have the same build, and the Greg quote suggests they do. Was Greg wrong to assume they all have the same or even similar builds simply because they were a team? Definitely. Does that mean this answer should be disregarded? No. Nothing directly contradicts it. In the context of the rest canon, it just means we can’t be entirely sure about the Toa that were recruited to fight the Kanohi Dragon, but we can pretty much say the original team had the same build, which includes Tuyet. Not because they’re all from the same region (they aren’t), but because Greg says its safe to assume that. If Greg’s reasoning was team cohesion, I highly doubt one off members called to help for one specific task and then went back home right after should be counted as team members.

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Sorry, but I still do not understand where you get that from?

The question in the quote is about the Toa Mangai, not Lhikan’s team. Hence why doesn’t this apply to Lhikan’s original team?:

This is entirely correct, but neither do they absolutely have to have the same build. It is possible they have the same build. Likely, even. But not absolutely certain.

I am not saying the quote is only concerned with or only applies to Lhikan’s team. It applies to all 11 of them. However, I think there is enough to doubt the validity of the quote concerning the recruited Toa because they weren’t part of the team for long. Again, if the reason for Greg saying that was simply team cohesion, why should these Toa be cohesive with Lhikan’s team? But Lhikan’s team, having been around for a few thousand years, is much more likely to be internally cohesive, and so I think the quote definitely holds for them at least, but it’s up in the air whether it actually does hold for all 11.

Ah, ok, I think I understand now.

However, I still disagree. There are several variables that can be taken into account here.

a) There is no actual need for team cohesion, so since the quote does not directly apply to Lhikan’s team, team cohesion is just a theory there
b) builds represent armor - it’s actually possible some of them (even Lhikan) got new armor in Metru Nui (one can imagine the Kanohi Dragon damaged some of the Toa’s equipment)
c) The Hagah being Metru builds can be seen as implying a wide spread of Metru style armor on Toa, so it is also possible that (some of) the Mangai who did not come from Lhikan’s team were Metru builds already

Leading me to the conclusion that the members of Lhikan’s team cannot be treated differently than those not from the team. Any Toa Mangai is likely a Metru build, but also every single one (apart from Lhikan) of them has a certain probability of not being a Metru build.

And as we’re thus dealing with nothing but probabilities here, we cannot make any definitive statements regarding any single one of the other Mangai.

I saw your suggestion earlier in the thread about Nidhiki sharing Krakua’s design and decided to take my own swing at it.

Admittedly a lot more vibrant color-wise than yours, which probably isn’t fitting for stealthy-and-evil Nidhiki, but I was trying to keep it limited to what shades of green those pieces were available in so it could be MOCable in real life (though I had to cheat with the chest piece).

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hmmm, interesting.

Don’t forget that Krakua spent most of his life in De-Koro - a remote De-Matoran village, hidden in a jungle on the ouskirts of the TK peninsula in order to avoid noise pollution as much as possible. This includes Toa, who weren’t allowed there. If anything, Krakua may have never met any Toa in person until his own transformation.
IMO, the simplest assumption, in relation to Vakama’s thoughts in Time Trap, is that Krakua has seen carvings of ancient (Toa?) heroes in the OoMN fortress during his training, which partly influenced his Toa appearance.

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This is an excellent point. However, I think there is enough to doubt that Krakua never met a Toa (or Nidhiki specifically). First, if we do assume Krakua never met a Toa, then his appearance would be the “factory setting” of sorts for how Toa look, but his build is neither Mata, Metru, or Inika, so it’s highly unlikely that is the case. While it’s possible Krakua could have seen images of Toa, like the carvings you mentioned, keep in mind the carvings are only in reference to the ones in the Archives Vakama mentions. To say Krakua was influenced by similar carvings that may or may not be in the OoMN fortress is a bit of a stretch.

Here’s what I think more likely happened:

The earliest canon appearance of De-Koro was in Brothers in Arms in a flashback from 5 years ago, where Nidhiki was an active Toa 4,000 years ago. We don’t know how long the village has been around, or more importantly, how long they had the “No Toa Allowed” rule. Despite being sensitive to sound, surely they needed protection from Rahi and such just as much as any other Matoran. Even assuming they had the rule from the very beginning, it’s possible they could’ve had exceptions for emergencies and such. A Toa who wore, say, the Mask of Stealth, which turns the user partially invisible and deadens their sound, would be a perfect match for De-Koro.

The only objection to this that comes to mind is that since the Volitak also turns the user partially invisible, how could Krakua see Nidhiki in order to be influenced by him? Remember the rule of no Toa was for De-Koro in general. Also remember that Krakua was seen as an outcast because sound apparently didn’t affect him as much (he would hum to himself). While De-Koro largely did not welcome Toa, Krakua specifically was probably a different case. He may have seen (or even spoken with, who knows) Nidhiki while he wasn’t using his mask power.

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Hm… actually… what says a Matoran who never saw a Toa would transform into a factory settings Toa?

Wouldn’t it be possible for a Matoran to never have seen a Toa but heard of them? And couldn’t these tales shape a mental image for that Matoran?

And couldn’t that actually be the origin of the various Toa builds?

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It’s a logical assumption. A Matoran destined to transform who has never seen or heard of what a Toa looked like would still have to transform into something. I would guess their AI has the subconscious idea of the default build, but is overwritten if/when that Matoran encounters a Toa that influences them.

Possible, sure, but unlikely imo. Getting a detailed mental image of someone simply by hearing a description of them is incredibly difficult.

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Counterpoint: everyone, on some level, will have an image of what something should look like unless they’re literally blind. For example, have you ever heard of a flargnark? Well, they’re these really big people with magical powers. Oh, and you could become one someday!

The only way you wouldn’t have any sort of mental image when I give even the vaguest description is if you have aphantasia. In that case, and only that case, would “factory settings” even be necessary, and even then, they may not be needed because even aphantasiacs are able to understand the meaning of words, they just can’t form clear mental images.

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Counter counterpoint: there’s a difference between a vague mental image and a specific build.

For example, let’s say I tell you about a tall, armoured warrior, clad in red and orange armour, with a flame sword and fire powers. I just described Tahu – and Ackar. Two very different builds. I think a Matoran who has never seen a Toa will have something similar – an image of being taller, more armoured, but not necessarily a specific build.

Also I’m picturing a Flagnark as having American flag colours and for some reason a really long tongue. Just wanted to mention that.

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