Come to think of it, their toy model reminds me more of a lamprey than anything
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I also included this.
Also,
Spinning webs is the only thing that makes them a spider. Half the legs, two eyes (not primarily forwards facing), a spinning rotor blade in the middle of its abdomen, at most the webs is something thrown in to make them more like a spider. It’d be like if the sea squid could generate a cloud of ink; a completely superficial in-world addition to make it more like the source material.
It’s not an equal comparison and neither is comparing sea squids to real squids. Again, I remind you about angry sea gnome.
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I’m lost as to whom the angry sea gnome is.
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Is it possible that, in-story, the creatures used to resemble squids?
According to BS01, “Pit Mutagen causes internal damage to their DNA which will not become apparent until generations to come.” That could mean that they were originally more squid-like, but over time, their bodies changed.
Alternatively, Kalmah could have been responsible for the change. BS01 says that “Kalmah took it upon himself to breed the creatures in this cave,” so perhaps Kalmah selectively bred the squids to better suit his needs, and after a long time, they no longer resembled squids.
What say you all?
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Surprising as it is, the only transformation that occurred to Gadunka is solely that of size and nothing else. As per the ever vague Greg:
So yes, there’s an entire species of tiny angry men with big teeth walking on the ocean floor, and we’re questioning why squids don’t look normal.
This is a fair explanation, but the actual amount of physical alterations that occur could be very minimal. Brutaka was altered by the pit mutagen and barely changed at all, and almost all of the physical abnormalities the Barraki possess are explained away as being part of their species (except, of course, Kalmah’s third eye, which was blinded by Pridak before we ever met the character).
Also, on BS01, it cites Kalmah’s abilities and there’s one in particular to pay attention to:
Kalmah had five tentacles on the back of his head which could sense movement in the water. He had a long tentacle on his left hand, which he could use to manipulate objects and to attack. He was able to share memories with Sea Squid by touching tentacles with them.
Kinda sussy, but at the same time, that’s plural. Meaning the sea squid also have tentacles. So… Bizarre comic and set depictions aside, the Sea Squid not being squid due to the lack of tentacles is a moot argument because they very much do possess them,
And on a final note: the BS01 page for the sea squid literally calls them Squid-Like, not squids in an actual sense, so I don’t see why this question had to be asked. It’s the Bionicle universe; real-world rules need not apply.
His needs:
-bullet
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Oh yes it is.
Look at the Toa and the Matoran. Both are explicitly stated not to be humans; they’re their own species. But they still have a lot of human-like qualities, in that they stand upright, and they have the same number of appendages we do. What’s more, they can think the way we do, and talk to and interact with each other just like humans do. Therefore, we accept them as the MU’s “people.”
Similarly, the Visorak are as close as anything in the Bionicle universe is to a spider. While you are right in that they have four as opposed to eight legs, they still have a very spider-like stance. Their legs are all bent in much the same way as a real spider’s, and their bodies are held close to the ground. Watch any clip from Web Of Shadows and tell me they don’t walk like spiders.
Is that all? Far from it. I specifically remember a 2005 Lego catalog showing the Visorak “minifigures” having little green “stings” where you could clip them to a strand of green webbing. No doubt that was meant to represent a set of spinnerets. And in the commercials, the movie, and even the Bionicle Heroes video game, we saw the Visorak using their back legs to pull the webbing out from their butts spinnerets like a real spider would.
(And yes, Fenrakk doesn’t spin any webs, but there are some species of spiders that don’t spin webs, such as the tarantula.)
Also in WOS, we see that in between the Visorak’s mandibles, there’s a little mouth there. Similarly, real spiders have small mouths, and many have protrusions called “palps” on either side of the mouths-kind of like the Visorak’s mandibles. Granted, they both have very different functions, but the point still stands.
Kinda unrelated, but at one point in WOS, Roodaka orders a group of Visorak to “throw yourselves off the edge” to demonstrate her control to Vakama. The idea is that the Visorak are so afraid of Roodaka, they’ll commit suicide if she asks them to. But honestly, I don’t think it’s as bad as they make it out to be. Humans can deliver more than enough force to squish spiders, but spiders are still really strong relative to their size. I’ve seen spiders fall from heights that would be dangerous even for a human and show no signs of injury. Since the Visorak are biomechanical creatures, surely their exoskeletons are even more durable than a real spider’s, and they could survive the fall.
No, the Visorak cannot be scientifically classified as arachnids, but they are as comparable to a spider as a Kane-Ra is to a bull.
Oh come on. When was it ever said that Gadunka was a “fish?”
…because they’re called exactly that: tiny angry green men. The “squids,” on the other hand, are about as comparable to real squids as the 2001 Tarakava set is to a real lizard. Although…
As Ghid pointed out, the Pit’s mutagens seem to affect different people to different extents, and for some reason it didn’t affect Nocturn at all. But given how drastically the Barraki changed, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that the Pit altered the sea squids into the lamprey-like shape they have now.
I know what I said earlier about the small appendages on the top and bottom of the squid not being tentacles, but perhaps I was wrong. Maybe they’re just vestigial.
Nope. He’s an octopus.
Ah, so “men” was the term used loosely. Got it
Your comparison is falling apart, because in one argument you use the Bionicle Universe’s in-universe context for naming something and then use the consumer perspective for another. The Matoran may be the MU’s “people”, but initially, everyone except Matoran were “people” as they were the only later-sapient species to receive sentience via Velika.
credit: PylonMadness for the link
Quite literally, they were the cannon fodder of the universe. You as a consumer may accept that this is the “people” of the narrative, as is the intent, but story-wise - and since you used MU I assume that must be what you refer to - it couldn’t be further from the truth.
“As close as anything in the Bionicle universe is to a spider.”
Thank you for this. It makes my job a whole lot easier.
What is your definition of a spider? By looking at the arguments, it would seem as it is an arachnid-like animal with four or more legs, the ability to produce webbing, and the ability to inject a venomous toxin directly into the victim via mandibles located directly next to the mouth. This fits both the Visorak and most real-world spiders.
But that’s just your definition.
Likewise, your definition of the terminology “squid” appears to be a creature with a number of tentacles, the ability to produce ink, a shape which is relatively “squid-like”, and behavior befitting a carnivore. The sea quid fails two of these categories, and likely more that I’m not specifically addressing. But that’s just your definition.
You’re looking at a piece of rubber made from 2007 called a squid and saying “that’s not a real world squid!” because, well… No. It isn’t. Nothing in Bionicle is a real-world anything, not even spiders. Reiterate how they use webbing as much as you want, but the amount of legs alone is enough to prove they cannot be, and with the addition of giant metal pincers, side-facing eyes, and every other minor detail about their physiology, there’s no doubt they aren’t spiders.
It’s not an equal comparison. It’s just not.
You, uh… Misremember.
There’s a hole through the minifigure’s body where you can attach the stud portion of the webbing, and there’s a set of tiny pincers inside its mouth which I believe you can slide the string into, but nothing remotely close to two stings which could be clipped to the string itself anywhere remotely near the proper location for a spinneret. At most the stud attached to the underside may have represented that, but most likely it was as a play function for having the spiders jump across the Toa, web in tow. Also, none of them were green.
…And also, canonically they also produce webbing just fine from their mouths. So no, not spinneret, more likely… digestive process. Yeugh.
And there are also no species of spiders with necks and a set of the pearliest whites to ever appear in a children’s toy, so I think at the very least we can accept Bionicle logic for Fenrakk.
Oh, and a tail. Fenrakk has a tail.
There it be.
This is a spider according to Bionicle. Maybe the Bionicle definition differs a little from your own for spiders, and squids as well.
I don’t even know what your point is. They’re spiders because they have mouths?
And last I checked the sea squid has tentacles and a mouth, so surely it qualifies as a squid.
Given the visorak discussion is in itself a tangent, I’ll skip this.
Which is also not a real-world bull as it has a massive tank tread for its hind legs.
I don’t see how this sentence does anything other than hurt your argument. If the visorak can’t be scientifically classified as arachnids, then why all the fuss over them? And why the fuss over the sea squid when there’s much more realistic squids in existence in the Bionicle universe, like the Great Temple Squid?
The Great Temple Squid had twelve huge tentacles, each with a small beak at the end, and another, larger beak that could be seen at the center of the creature’s body. Their strength rivals that of a Toa.
Here’s a free of charge theory for ya: The great temple squid and other squids were discovered in the Bionicle universe first, and when the sea squid, an animal which was not created by the Makuta, was discovered, they classified it as a squid for having squid-like properties. Does this tie things over for you?
Gadunka are small but ferocious marine Rahi.
They are as much of a fish as the Great Temple Squid. Yes, they’re a species of humanoid fish men with hips wide enough to bridge the grand canyon and enough teeth to make Fenrakk jealous angrily stomping about on the bottom of the sea floor, and they’re entirely canon.
And we’re talking about why a squid don’t look so good.
Oh, and they aren’t green. They’re blue, da boo dee da boo dai.
Actually - and I only found this out later - it absolutely is.
The sea squid are specifically stated as being tolerant of the mutagen, but not immune, and all but directly stating we have not yet seen what form the mutation will take.
Despite living and breeding in mutagenic waters, Sea Squid are not immune to the mutagen. Pit Mutagen causes internal damage to their DNA which will not become apparent until generations to come.
Note the use of Will and To Come instead of Did or any other past-tense language. For better or for worse, they’re supposed to look like this. And for better or worse - in the Bionicle universe - they are squid.
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So everything that lives in the sea is a fish now?
You want to talk about definitions, try looking up the definition of fish.
Fenrakk don’t have those. Only Vezon’s does. Unmutated Fenrakk appear in the playsets, and the only noncanon aspect is their size relative to the minifigs.
You, uh… Misread what he said.
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ichthyology, amiright
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this is probably the only thing you need to read on this topic.
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Rahi are biomechanical creatures composed of organic and inorganic Protodermis. The term “Rahi” literally translates to “not us” in the Matoran language although it is more commonly translated to “wildlife.” Rahi are generally considered to have lower intellects than the Sapient Species of the universe, acting primarily on instinct and out of a desire for basic needs such as food and shelter. They have no balance of Light, and thus no sense of morality.
Every fish, whale, squid, spider, bear, bird, bizarre spider-faced building-eating humanoid and literal germ is a Rahi. Every fish the Makuta made is a Rahi. Gadunka, while not expressly stated as a fish, has a much better shot at being a fish than something like the sea spider.
Actually, there’s a lot that’s non-canon about them. Namely, the fact that the only mutation that occurred is size.
The Fenrakk Spawn have six legs, no teeth, a completely different physical makeup… So it would make sense to assume they were properly mutated or transformed by the mask. But no, it’s just the size, meaning one of the two is wrong.
And even with Fenrakk spawn, there’s severe inconsistencies.
Both of these are listed as Fenrakk spawn and the Fenrakk that bore the name in set form is stated to be a male Fenrakk spawn. So which one is it?
I don’t think we can use the playsets as a basis for much of anything, unfortunately. Which given that the Piraka stronghold would have a giant Vezok face for no reason if we did is probably for the best.
No? The spinneret is located at the rear of the spider. Nothing on the minifig exists there to connect it to the rope piece. It wasn’t there to represent a set of spinnerets because it wasn’t there at all.
If there’s another meaning to what he said, please detail it for me - without the passive aggressive attitude, please.
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Congratulations, you have shown that you are capable of looking up definitions, and you have proven that Gadunka is a Rahi.
It’s a shame that’s not what I said, though.
You’re right: Gadunka is 100% Rahi. He is also 100% not a fish. And he’s not stated to be a fish, so… Why bring him up?
You brought up a quote saying that Gadunka’s only mutation was size. Do you have one for Fenrakk as well?
OK, so
I believe the word “stings” was a typo of strings, mainly because “stings” is not a part of a spider’s anatomy as far as I can determine.
So, yes, they have green strings that they can clip to. This is true
I could be wrong and he meant something else.
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So I think we’re done.
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Sorry, I wasn’t PA on the part where you asked me not to be, I assumed that was what you meant.
To reword: you say that the Gadunka are Rahi that live in the sea. Therefore, they are fish.
However, the definition of fish (based on my results from googling “fish definition”) literally includes “limbless”. By definition, Gadunka isn’t a fish. And unless I missed it, he isn’t called one, either. So there’s no contradiction in Gadunka’s existence, like with the Visorak, Fenrakk, sea squid, etc.
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I prefer not to think of the whole Velika thing as canon
Yes, I’m using MU to refer to the Matoran Universe.
Because, again, the Visorak have enough spider-like qualities that I can buy them as the MU’s equivalent of spiders. The sea squid…like I said in my opening post, it’s clear that Bionicle has a very different definition of “squid” than we do. But what makes it hard for me to swallow is that there are other squid in the MU that are closer to real-world squid. If it wasn’t for them, I might be able to accept the “sea squid” as being the MU’s version of squid.
No, they’re not. They’re the closest thing the MU has.
Sorry to state the obvious, but I don’t have any of the late 2005 catalogs with me to check. So I can’t say for sure whether I’m misremembering.
So…how does that explain how they were able to pull it out of their rear ends in the online animations and Bionicle Heroes game? Then again, the game isn’t canon to the actual story…
And I’m not entirely sure what its function is. Maybe to give an extra foothold for Vezon?
That’s just on the sets. It’s something the designers put there to add some extra playability. If we’re really going to accept the sets as 100% canon, then Jaller Inika only had one sword, and Nuparu didn’t have his Aqua Blaster Blade.
I mean…that’s possible, yes. But I honestly don’t see how anyone familiar with the Great Temple Squid could look at the sea squid (which more resembles a lamprey) and say “Hey, that totally looks like a squid!” Then again, we don’t even know if there ARE lampreys in the MU. 
Then I guess we’ll have to accept the theory that what we see is a result of Kalmah breeding them to his ideals.
Not that there’s anything wrong with Bionicle coming up with its own set of “rules.” But is it too much to ask for some consistency?
Maybe they’re just different breeds, but the same genetic species. Like, a Labrador and a Pomeranian have almost nothing in common, but they are still part of the species Canis Familiaris.
No, you’re not wrong. I did mean that the Visorak minifigures supposedly had green “stings” at the back to connect to the strings. But, again, I might not be remembering it correctly.
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This is what I get for assuming other people’s meaning.
I get being wrong.
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Well.
Denying one part of canon while in an argument about canon is not a good tactic for proving your side.
Sorry to state what isn’t obvious, but I didn’t know that. I actually have a lot of 2005 magazines, but even if I didn’t, I could just look it up online. Bricklink and Brickset have decent databases with almost every set present, and you can find the visorak minifgs on Bricklink easily.
You… literally answered your own question. The designers did whatever they wanted. Also in that game, Bohrok could fly, Nidhiki and Sidorak existed, and the Piraka had access to a number of Rahkshi, so yes. It’s not canon.
Basically. But it exists on what that universe considers a “Spider”.
Also in the same universe, a race of tiny sea men, lanky spider-faced individuals who eat buildings, and sentient clouds of gas that manipulate politics and make animals. The argument that “the sea squid isn’t a squid because it doesn’t look like one” seems more and more ridiculous when the entire rest of the universe exists.
It’s canon.
Kane-Ra are bovine in appearance, with sharp, curving horns and a broad snout. They possess a tread-like appendage in place of hind legs. They are capable of extending their necks a great distance and use this ability to great effect as a defense mechanism.
Let me provide an example.
This is a fleshy creature with tentacles, is very fast in the water, and has a mouth lined with a circular ring of teeth. Its texture is reminiscent of a squid and its behavior in regards to eating and breeding are extremely similar. Ergo, it is - albeit a very strange variety of - a squid.
Now try and convince your local Matoran chronicler that it’s actually a type of animal he’s never seen before by telling it how it doesn’t have the shape of a squid while Visorak spiders, Fenrakk spiders, and Sea spiders are all spiders.
Not counting all the other MU species of humanoid individuals, invisible beings, dragons, or talking, walking, thinking, humanoid “animals” that understand speech and comprehend logical concepts as well as any actual person - isolating the comparison to just the spiders - this is ridiculous.
You mean you’ll have to. I’m perfectly content and doubly so after this discussion.
Really, “Sea Lamprey” doesn’t roll off the tongue nearly as well for set marketing.
One has four legs and two have six legs.
One has a tail and giant chompers and the others don’t.
One’s face is a giant glowing sphere.
Types of dogs are due to visible adaptation and specific breeding, but none of them grew two extra legs. There is no way all three are the same thing and I don’t think even Greg can rectify that.
unless he tries pulling the ‘all variants of the same species’ thing like he did with the shadowed one although now he has extra limbs to contend with
The front.
Also not green.
And… I think that’s all that can be said. There’s nothing left to discuss, really. Until you address the entire rest of the universe existing, there’s nowhere else to go. You think it’s not a squid because it doesn’t look like one despite the rest of the universe not working by that logic, and I think it gets a pass due to the universe it’s in.
And that’s about it.
what was the point of this topic again
it is clearly going nowhere
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