Toa Hagah Canon Contest Survey and Final Q&A

Approaching, in much the same way that TTV are due to approach Greg’s inbox about some canon contests or whatever.

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I apologies if this has already been asked, but would collaborations be allowed in the case of “design as a set”? If you had four people who made different designs that work well together, could they simply band together and present them as a group?

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We’ve been arguing if that should or shouldn’t be a thing.

Currently there’s no specification either way, so argue under the assumption that it goes the way you’d prefer. Just make it clear you’re arguing under that assumption.

I see no reason that this should be disallowed. The entire point of doing all four at once is to “encourage” “consistency”.

Whether all four designs come from one person, or from four people working together, it makes no difference.

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That’s a fun idea actually.

I don’t agree with the people who are opposed to an as-a-set vote, but if things go that way maybe this could help alleviate their concerns somewhat?

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I’ve created a now closed topic covering my points in more detail here, but I would like to bring some conversation back into it and ask formally under this survey.

By reasons explained in the above mentioned topic, I believe that there should be some restriction to what constitutes a spear. Some close-cut options should be available in the design portion of the contest, as it allows for more creative works. However, as for these that can not act like a spear, the art portion should have the liberty to fix them such that they can be viewed as spears. As I demonstrated, there does not need to be far too much alteration to make something like a hook scythe or a pole-sword balanced and piercing like a spear.

My main concern stems from a response on the previous feedback topic that, due to its ambiguous wording, would allow for horizontal striking weapons such as pickaxes and scythes to be allowed. Which just, purely, does not even come close to the definition of a spear. Of course, small bladed scythes, hammers, pickaxes, axes, etc. can have a piercing end to them, which could fit the generalizing nature of Bionicle as to what a spear is. Like this, for instance. What I really want to prevent are weapons like the scythe in this proceeding image to be accepted as a spear.


These types of weapons would be very difficult to morph into a spear aesthetic without changing the dimensions of it greatly. As there would likely be great outcry from artists providing such dramatic changes, I don’t think these types of horizontal striking weapons should be allowed for the design portion of the contest.

And for those who want to argue about a spear’s functionality:

a thrusting or throwing weapon with long shaft and sharp head or blade

-The Merriam-Webster Dictionary

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I hope collabs are allowed, then. Anyway, I just read the first half of this topic, and skimmed the second; here’re my takeaways.

@Gilahu, I think it said in the Web of Shadows book or the Birth of the Hagah comic that the masks and armor were made by enslaved Matoran. This always led me to assume that the previous teams told Teridax what mask would be appropriate, and they made the whole armor set at once. Then, Teridax gave the masks back to the teams so they could present them to the Hagah, basically what @TheJerminator said. I could be mistaken, though.

Also, about Gilahu’s points on armor variance: we literally only know that two elements have to be the same between them all, the thigh-plates that the shields. You could make an argument for the feet, too, but we have precedent for differing foot models in a single team. Besides that, we know they must all have a breastplate, pauldrons, and a spear-tip but they can look like anything an artist likes, given the set precedent. Same with elements like the lower arms and legs.

I dig @Hazash 's proposal for voting individually, then electing a team. It’s got potential issues, but if they can be smoothed, it sounds like the ideal solution.

Oh, and a question for @Mesonak : Can the shields be mirrored? If Bomonga holds his shield in the right hand, can the sides be swapped, as long as the design is the same otherwise?

And finally, a general question for you all: I here a lot of debate around consistency, be it 3:3, 2:2:2, etc. How would people feel about a team with completely individual colors? That’s what I’ve always pictured, and am planning to enter.

Also, I hope everyone keeps in mind that, while these are not MOC contests, they also aren’t ‘set’ contests. The goal isn’t to create what Lego might’ve, but what the canon allows, which is much more broad.

This is what I’d prefer, but I’d honestly be fine with anything.

If you’re willing to share, what are your colour ideas? All official Lego colours, or are you thinking custom colours?

I wouldn’t even say that the thighs have to be the same.

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That’s fine with me. I just don’t think that’s how the voting will pan out with either simultaneous or sequential voting. It could with option 2 (the group contest).

Technically true, though my personal criteria are based on what looks most like a set, while being individually interesting. The same may be true for others.

Or the “artists pick combo” option.

Although it would still rely on having enough uniquely-coloured entries get to their own respective finals first…

I agree with this. I think weapons should be mandated to have an actual pointy tip at the top of the weapon. I think they must function as a spear, even if they are not technically a spear. Halberds are a great example of this. It’s both a spear and an axe. It brings visually distinctive features that allow for creativity, but still works as an actual spear in the spirit of the Hagah.

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I’m entirely ambivalent toward the first question. Either could work. The only caveat I’ll add is that it would seem unnecessary to allow mask changes if they’re all simultaneous.

As for the second one - all at once, in a single entry. The only major argument I can see against is that people don’t want the pressure of having to design all four Hagah, but frankly, that’s probably more achievable than half of the MoCs people entered for our behemoth Artakha. And it’s a very slippery slope, too - you could argue people might not have the resources to make any MoCs, by the same reasoning. There is always the option to build digitally or make art. I understand the concerns about locking people out of the contests - but at the end of the day, you have to be able to create an entry. If you don’t own any Lego anymore, you’re also unable to enter a MoC. Is that unfair to those people?

I don’t know. I’m all for being inclusive, and I don’t want people to be unable to enter, but there’s still plenty of avenues. If you don’t have any blue, you can’t make Helryx - is that “unfair” or is that just the nature of… well, a Lego building contest? You’re not fighting the rules at that point - you’re fighting the medium (which, I might restate, is not the only medium available in these contests).

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Exactly. It’s already bad so let us not make it worse.

You know what, watching all these discussions unfold, I never imagined that the seemingly boring contest (4 almost clone-like Metru builds) would spawn thousands of posts arguing over the most pointless of details before it even started.

Never change, TTV, never change.

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I’m still advocating for simultaneous voting except for the final round, where they are staggered. Preferably with Kualus and Gaaki first as they have more controversy over their colour-schemes.

None of these options are perfect, but I do think the above option maximises control over how we want the overall team to look, for the least amount of confusion & delay.

or…

If you want them to blend, you must stagger the end!

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The amount of misreading of my comment is impressive.

As I already said, the ratio of metalic colors is already enforced in the current rules because specific body parts with this color are mandated. Even more strict version of what you are hoping for is already at place.

See the answer to above.

Yes, I have been saying the same thing.

Misinterpratation/misreading of my point. I am not saying consistency is unnecessary. Options 2 and 3 are unnecessary, because the same consistency they could hope to achieve is already written into the rules. They would only come with extra restrictions and/or unfairness.

Not entirely true, you can choose individual entries that you consider to fit the best together. You can put together a consistent team. Otherwise yes, this option in itself does not contribute to consistency - it doesn’t need to.

A better chance at somethig, which is already enforced in rules, but this time with added complications.

None of which is something most people consider characteristic of Hagah. Same height is already mandated btw.

You didn’t explain how I am wrong about that?

That is definitely not wrong, if you read trough people’s posts you’ll see. Even Hazash already admitted option 2 is not ideal.

The way staggered voting (option 3) contributes to these problematic results (which you omitted here) is it creates bias for whatever style the first winning Hagah happens to be.

That is not a bias, but a standard for those few points characteristic for Hagah.

it’s a fantasy world. I’m all for weapon lore and definition, but in this instance, I personally think we should be lenient. Bionicle has never exactly fit the definitions of what they call their weapons anyways.

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Sure, this is why I argued about the pointy tip being the important part rather than it being an actual spear. The Hagah have this particular wrist movement that is special to them especially to accomodate their long pointy weapons. I think this is an important part of their character design.

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You claim people misunderstand you, yet it is you who doesn’t understand them.

No one has been talking about that in this topic. The placement of metallic armor is in the rules, everyone knows this. We’re talking about how many Toa Hagah have each color – i.e. three with gold armor, or five with silver.

No. It is not. Again, I think this comes from the fact you think we’re talking about armor placement. We’re not.

It wouldn’t be restrictions, because we’re not trying to mandate consistency. Just to give an option to vote for it.

Everyone’s been over why this doesn’t work, but to put it simply:
Let’s say I vote for a certain silver Pouks, because that works with the other three I voted for. However, a silver Gaaki, Bomonga, and Kualus wind up winning. Had I known that, I wouldn’t have voted for a silver Pouks.

I never said it is characteristic of them. I said:

Quotes my explanation
Says I didn’t explain anything.

Though, yes, I think I didn’t reply what to what you said – because as I realize now, you seem to have been arguing about metallic armor placement, which is already in the rules and isn’t what we’ve been talking about.

Did you read what I wrote below? I said I don’t think a significant portion of potential entrants would be cut out by mandating all four. I never said no one would be, just that I don’t think it will be “significant fractions”.

Ok, I’ll admit I might have misunderstood this. So you’re saying if a moc wins for the first Hagah, it’s more likely for a moc to win for the second, and third, and so fourth, and if an art wins, it’s more likely for art to win the rest. Is that it?

Well, then in that case… I don’t think that would be the case. With how similar the Hagah will be, a good art will fit in with the mocs, and vice versa.

A standard is a bias.
For example, some people will only vote for entries that share the same feet as Norik and Iruini, or that share either Norik or Iruini’s leg type. They want the other Hagah to fit with Norik and Iruini – so shouldn’t they also fit with each other?

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enumerate

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