Toa Hagah Canon Contest Survey and Final Q&A

Whatever is the correct English term to describe the differences between Norik and Iruini.

To me they share a concept, but wear visually distinct armor.


Ceterum censeo agonem esse terminandum.

3 Likes

Shoulder, chest, thigh, and feet armor matching the mask, shield, and speartip in metallic color.

That must be consistent. What each piece looks like is up to the builder/artist.

Ceterum censeo agonem esse terminandum.

“Repetition rings a bell!”
― Ernest Agyemang Yeboah

7 Likes

Oh no.
That is painful.
Four links in:image

3 Likes

The thing about this argument is, where do you draw the line on “too many” parts? For some people, building even one Hagah exceeds their available parts. Is that “unfair” to these people?

And we also have to consider it in the context of some of these other contests; four Metru builds still have fewer parts than a lot of the Artakha entries, for example.

Still though, I see your point, and that’s where collabs would come in.

Yeah, these should all be unique for each Hagah.

The thing is, this can still happen in the staggered voting. Say that you really like an entry in the fourth contest, but it would create some sort of imbalance. Now you regret your earlier votes, and you wish you could have given priority to this fourth entry.

This isn’t quite true. It is also stated that the Hagah’s masks were made by enslaved mask makers. I’ve always assumed that the whole “masks were presented by their former teammates” thing was more of an orchestrated ceremonial event, rather than something the teams decided to do on their own.

That’s the entire point of the Art Contest though, to replicate the winning MOC in a format that is more palatable for BS01.

The only reason that the artists were allowed to change the masks for these last two contests is because custom masks were mandatory to comply with canon and TTV didn’t want to mandate custom parts, so placeholder masks were necessary.

That isn’t the case in these contests.

Couldn’t you say the same thing about the regular 3 day voting periods though?

No, the main point of the Art Contests was to make a version of the character that BS01 was happy with. The whole “changing Kanohi” was an unrelated rule, implemented because TTV didn’t want to require custom parts.

Yes. Every entry has pros and cons.

What will you do if Kualus has a stupid metallic colour, or stupid shoulders?

But doesn’t that create the exact same problem that you pointed out with the staggered voting?

1 Like

That’s true, however at least voters still have some capacity to change their votes on the contests that are yet to be concluded. If you do voting simultaneously, you’re stuck with the most popular four, and the only inconsistency that can be resolved at that stage is identical masks.

I will reiterate that staggered voting doesn’t outright prevent any of the issues that the simultaneous voting brings, however the odds of people being satisfied with the canon designs is much higher with the former. It gives people at least some power to weed out designs that don’t fit with the team.

And if we don’t stagger the voting, we cannot reliably prevent identical spear heads.

If we really have to do the voting simultaneously @Mesonak, I would recommend letting artists modify at least one part of the phase 1 designs (with the creator’s consent). That could be the mask, the spear, the chest or the colour, or something more trivial.
Edit: wait a minute… Why isn’t modifying spears a thing as well as masks? Their spears all have unique names in canon, so surely they must look different.

No:

The main thing of the Art part is Kanohi. With Hagah it is not that important because it does not define an actual Kanohi shape but only a Hagah Kanohi shape, but still. I also give reasoning about Artists being left with little place for creativity, in case MOCer says “no” in the main post.

Kanohi is the most important of all separate features of an entry. It will appear on a separate page on BS01 and stuff. With Hagah Kanohi are not so important though, so yes that argument is only an add-on to the main one.

No, because there is 5-7 day period before each wave of polls, in which MOCer can slighlty adjust his creation to better fit with those Hagah that were defined in previous contests, such as changing armor color or spear-tip shape. I said it in step 5 of the lower list of my post.

1 Like

How about this?
What if the moc-er says no, the artist can not change the kanohi that the moc-er picked, but he is allowed to stylize it to better suit the design of the character as long as it keeps the kanohi selected?

1 Like

The lava staff and aqua axe have unique names, so surely they must look different.

Thing is, weapon shapes aren’t as unique as mask shapes.

They do, one is a staff/spear

1 Like

Okay

The Repellers an the Air Katana have unique names, surely they must look different.

Well to be fair in real life, we have weapons that look very much alike but are different. Say fire-arms, there are companies that will use some very similar bodies and keep slides and grips all the same, really only changing the barrel size and accommodating the internal workinngs underneath to suit it. This can make weapons that look the same be very functionally different, still warranting differentiation.
I imagine because of the fact that these weapons have different powers associated with the weapon, it could work in a similar concept. They chose a base model blade before having it infused with a power. Makes sense to me. Looks similar but is functionally different.
I mean, that concept alone right there is essentially how their Kanohi have different powers against the shape anyways, or is at least similar

1 Like

Personally I’d prefer four separate contests to be held for each of the Toa.

First off having a group contest will limit the amount of people who are able to enter. Arguments have been made that you can buy peices or use a digital designer, but the reality is that not everyone has the funds or access to a computer to be able to use those options. I don’t support the idea of excluding entries that might win simply because they are not made in a set of four.

Secondly, even if all four toa had to be entered at once they are not guaranteed consistency. One could make all four toa in gunmetal with the same armor peices, staffs and masks and simply swap the primary color, it doesn’t mean they will win, but They might not look like Norik and Iriuni regardless.

Lastly I’d argue that a little variation isn’t a bad thing. All toa teams have had a bit of variation and personally I like that each has their own personality/style while still looking like they go together. With the restrictions that we have been given(armor placement, metru build, height limits) I think it would be difficult to make something that looks like it really doesn’t belong. And even if that were the case I’d highly doubt that an entry would be chosen if someone did manage to make something look that different.

4 Likes

Good point, though I think identical but differently-named weapons are more because LEGO sometimes reuses moulds instead of making new ones, and the canon just has to follow suit. We’ve never gotten identical but differently-functioning weapons within a team before (I’m preparing for someone to throw an obscure example at me), so I think there’s enough precedent here to mandate that all spear pieces for the Hagah must be different.

It’s not about amount of parts, but sudden requirement of sveral copies of the same parts.
But that is only a single point of my argument.
This contest is the first to run at free-for-all format, which boasts equal ground for all entrants. One fraction (the MOCist fraction) is dependent upon physical resource, the others are not. Forcing people to build more models than anticipated or wanted puts severe constraints on a MOCists and you instantly lessen the credibility of free-for-all.
Many people do not want to make all 4 even if they had infinite supply of parts, they just want to make their Hagah of choice. The same goes for artists in this regard.

The other problem is that each entrant enters 4 separate characters, all of which would become canon. This greatly exacerbates the selective preference problem, which we already saw in previous contests. There voters liked some parts of the MOC, but not others (such as mask). This is bound to happen at a much larger scale if all 4 Hagah were to be inseparable in each entry.

The truth is it is not at all necessary to force entrants to make all 4, no matter the medium.
I understand that @Hazash strives for consistency, but consider this:
Would be the result os this “consistency” achieved by each entrant making entire team? The result would be all Hagah be metru builds, have spears, rhotuka shields, and distribution of metallic colors strictly constrained to specific body parts. They wouldn’t have identical armor, or even limbs, because existing Hagah already don’t.

Now you may notice that all of these points are already enforced in the current rules for Hagah contest. Forcing entrats to make all 4 Hagah, or otherwise they get disqualified, is an immense cost, which doesn’t yield any benefit.

1 Like

Note that that quote only applies to Tuyet, Artakha, and Helryx.

I’m not sure I agree with that. I would argue that the colour is one of the most defining aspects, then the Kanohi.

Yeah, for sure.

Jut to be clear, when I said this:

I was only referring to my choice between the two “consistency” options presented.

Overall, I’d still like to just keep them separate. Both of these new options have huge effects on the quality of the final outcome, and they don’t even guarantee consistency.

Well yeah, which what I partially expressed in the 2nd half of my post.
The maximum rate of consistency we can realiticaly expect is already enforced in the rules. The consistency options wouldn’t improve it, but they sure would introduce problems.

we did, they just called it Hero Factory.

Running them individually and simultaneously basically guarantees lack of consistency, though.

4 Likes

[Originally quoted Racie here but it was based on a misinterpretation]

Wait wat?

I will return to the example I made earlier:

But if the Kualus Contest was run first, metallic blue Kualus would have gotten more votes since there was nothing to compare him to.

Instead, Kualus’s appearance is being decided by TTV’s random, arbitrary decision to run his contest fourth.

2 Likes

By “separately” I meant “individually, run at the same time”, aka the original plan, the one you’re arguing against.

Sorry, should’ve made that clearer.

1 Like