But if the Kualus Contest was run first, metallic blue Kualus would have gotten more votes since there was nothing to compare him to.
Instead, Kualus’s appearance is being decided by TTV’s random, arbitrary decision to run his contest fourth.
2 Likes
By “separately” I meant “individually, run at the same time”, aka the original plan, the one you’re arguing against.
Sorry, should’ve made that clearer.
1 Like
If staggering is picked, and I am fully aware of how silly and trivial this sounds, I’d recommend doing them in alphabetical order. Since the ordering will increasingly affect each following entry, it’s a somewhat fair way that won’t be completely arbitrary. Unless you want to go by rahaga set number, but how many people care about set numbers?
And speaking as someone who can only physically build a Pouks moc, I am 100% against mandating all 4 entries. Be it parts, money, or a lack of time, going for that option will result in people who planned being on participating being barred from entry.
3 Likes
I had a feeling this was the case. Let me know if you plan to edit that message and I will remove my quote of you.
I can’t disagree with you there. The Hagah that get voted on first essentially have more sway over what the team looks like. However, I’m of the mind that it’s better to compromise in this regard than on severe inconsistencies emerging through simultaneous voting.
Maybe if staggered voting goes ahead, we should vote on what order they go in.
Somebody had to go last 
. I also think that if Kualus went first and a metallic blue one won, we probably wouldn’t get a metallic blue Gaaki or a 1/1/1/1/1/1 split in armour colours. I’m personally content with Kualus going last for this reason.
Doesn’t seem silly to me. The only problem is if you suggest an order before it’s implemented, some people will assume you had an agenda for choosing that order (e.g. for alphabetical, because you wanted Bomonga first). Again, that’s why I think it should be voted on.
1 Like
The same could be said of mandating the torso piece – some people just don’t have one, or it’s in the wrong colour.
Point being, there is 0 possibility of making it so anyone can enter. There will always be compromise. Is it worth barring some people to get canon compliant torsos? TTV would argue it is. Is it worth barring some people to get a team that looks like a team? I would argue it is.
Wasn’t planning to before, but I figure it’s probably better to make my point clear for anyone reading through the topic later, so I went ahead and edited it.
1 Like
mmm…
that sweet sweet Helvetica Neue
1 Like
I think having a logic behind the ordering is better than going completely random, and alphabetically seems to be the most common sense approach. And it would also put my Pouks dead last, so I’m also shooting myself in the foot here whoops
True, and though I will be forefront that I am mainly speaking out of self-interest, there’s a difference between mandating color usage or a part be used and mandating that people build four separate mocs all at once.
2 Likes
Cool. I removed my quote.
I’ve read up to this point in the discussion and I’ve been sufficiently convinced that mandating people enter all four Hagah as one is a bad idea, so I’ve changed my vote to option 3 (the simple staggering).
So far, the people who want to run the contests simultaneously have only a slight majority over the people who are (most likely) more concerned about ensuring consistency (i.e. people who voted for the other two options). I hope we can convince more of the former to vote for option 3. But the prevalence of votes for option 2 indicates to me that there is a good deal of concern surrounding the possibility of inconsistent designs.
So far, the people on my side of the camp seem more vocal than those who want simultaneous voting (or at least don’t think staggered voting helps - to those people I’ll refer you to my second-to-last post above this one). I want to hear more reasons as to why simultaneous is supposedly better, because my preference for staggered voting over simultaneous has barely been shifted so far.
1 Like
I second this. What are the downsides of staggered voting?
I see a few possibilities:
- The voting would go by super quick… if, of course, TTV chooses to make it super quick. I would argue this is 100% unnecessary. We already waited four months for the Hagah Contest to begin, I don’t see why we need to suddenly expedite things. But if we do… I don’t see it as that big of a downside, but I can see how it’s a bit of a downside.
- We found a perfect contest method already, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Except… it is broke. The Hagah are different from Helryx and Artakha. That’s the whole point. The method we have worked perfect for Artakha, would’ve worked perfect for Helryx, and will work perfect for LAriska, Tuyet, Nidhiki, Chiara, etc. The ideal contest rules for one character aren’t the ideal rules for all characters.
- It will be a bit unfair to the later Hagah. For example, if someone builds a Pouks with metallic pink, it might have won if it was first, but not if it was last and all the other Hagah have silver and gold. But let me ask you this: why is it considered a good thing that people will wind up voting for an enty they won’t like?
Let’s say that pink Pouks wins alongside three silver/gold Hagah. Now, people don’t like Pouks because he doesn’t fit in with the rest of the team, and wished they hadn’t voted for him. Is this really the better outcome? To have a canon design that no one likes?
Yes, it does kind of suck for the person that built pink Pouks, but their entry stood just as much chance of winning as any other, and could easily have won if people had chosen a green bomonga, a silver Gaaki, and a blue Kualus. And it could still win, if more people are willing to violate consistency for it. And then, that’s fine, because that’s what the majority wants.
(personally, I think there should at least be an ‘entry revision period’ for people to modify their entries after each results is revealed, though I can see how this would be very difficult to implement and take a lot more time)
4 Likes
Not a problem when stud.io exists
Not everyone may have a computer capable of running it, a lot of fans rely on their pieces to express their creativity. Or lack the art skills. A big reason as to why lego in general attracts its fans really
1 Like
Stud.io can run on a toaster and doesn’t require any art skills unless you want to make your own parts.
5 Likes
How different can these Toa Hagah mocs be with all these restrictions that people are actually worried about them having no team cohesion?
2 Likes
Tons of ways:
Five of them have silver and one has gold.
Five of them have bohrok shield chest plates, and Norik has two torsos.
Five of the have vahki shins, and iruini doesn’t.
Five of them have Metru feet and thighs, and pouks has Inika legs, or thunder thighs, or even CCBS legs.
Five of them have simple, one piece shoulder armour, and one has big buff sanok shoulders.
2 Likes
I haven’t seen an argument in these topics so quickly prove itself wrong. You’ve described the most they can possibly be alike.
This is literally what Pylonmadness is talking about.
3 Likes
Mi bigger concern about having all four polls for each Toa at once and creator not allowing change the mask after, is having two or more Toa with the same mask. Nothing in canon says that they can’t have the same shape, but come on, masks give them their identity. I could live with a none perfect ratio in metal color armors, but the same mask, no no.
From the beginning I prefered to have a full team contest, since I don’t think Hagah would or should be that interesting to have individual contest, and to me the most important aspect is the team look.
A thing I proposed in the first Hagah discution was to allow people parnership with other if they only create one Toa. They would have to deside who post it and credit should be given. You can also allow to a Toa be in multiple entries, like one Kualus designed by X, is presented as part of the team in four differents entries, so more people have chances of finding the rest of their team.
In case of uploating a full team, I woudn’t mandate to all have a shield (since is a scace part) or at least not mandate to have the same color than the Toa (if someone post a gunmetal Toa he could have a silver shield and then the team art contest should fix it)
Nooo, come back to the “Team side”
1 Like
Personally, I think that if two of them have the same mask, it’s more likely one or both of the creators will allow it to be changed.
The most likely mask to show up twice is Lhikan’s hau, maybe the Rode, and chances are, if someone’s using that, it’s because it’s one of the two dark gold masks to exist.
The most likely case where someone requests the mask not be changed is if they use a custom, 3d mask, or if they use an uncommon mask – like say if someone paints a calix gold for one of the Hagah. Things that they’re proud of and want to see canon, rather than just a mask they slapped on because it was the right color.
With all that into account, I’d say it’s highly unlikely that two Hagah will have the same mask, and both creators want to keep it. Possible, but highly unlikely.
even more unlikely if we do staggered voting
Edit: wait, just reread your post, are you talking about someone uploading all four, and using the same mask for two and not allowing it to be changed?
Because if anyone does that… they’re deliberately making a decision no one’s going to like, and I can’t see anyone voting for that.
1 Like
No, I expressed wrong but I corrected it. I mean to have the four polls for the individuals at once.
Maybe if two winning entries end up having the same mask, one of them must allow the change, if not the two should be able to be changed. I also belive is unlikely to end up with the same mask but I prefer not having that risk.
But that would be a decision of the voters. They would choose whatever is most important to them, a great Pouks or an equal armor ratio. Time should be allowed after each contest, so that someone can change the color if one thinks it is the best option.
The order of the contest must be random, so no favoritism is given to any Toa. Maybe Kualus and Gaaki first because somepoeple are worried that they end up golden
I think you’re missing the point of what Racie’s saying. Yeah, each individual Hagah is well within the limits of what they should be in Racie’s scenario. But, as a slight modification of the scenario, suppose it also retroactively makes Iruini the odd one out by having every other Hagah be an exact Norik clone. That’s undesirable for consistency not because any Hagah entry strays too far from the style of the existing Hagah, but because they establish a new pattern that is broken by one of the other Hagah. I personally think this situation is very unlikely, but it’s a fair argument because I think a lot of people would find it undesirable and there’s no real way to counter it if the contests have simultaneous voting.
Anyway, I voted for staggered because I think it’s important that people who want consistency in the Hagah get a chance to vote for it and I don’t think entrants should be forced to enter with all four.
3 Likes
That’s undesirable for consistency because we’re not confining ourselves to developing clone sets from 2004. The approach this contest has taken to defining itself has been utterly ridiculous, but we’re this far along now.
If people want to avoid patterns like this they can do so by voting for things that are actually built uniquely. This contest hasn’t even started yet and I’m fairly confident what the winners will be solely based on building styles of a select few people who consistently build uniquely; people who have been on the other side of the argument this entire time, ones I will likely vote for no matter their opinions.
Why? because all the Hagah MOCs offered thus far are but a stone’s toss away from the list example Racie offered up as the ‘great differences’ and all of them are but basic clones of each other. The individuals to which I refer barely go beyond that in terms of build and scope, but at least it’s something unique.
I think mandating the entry of all four would only ensure the victory of the people I bet will win regardless. Staggering voting will be unnecessarily empowering to the first of the Hagah and unnecessarily unfair to the last. That first Hagah decides what is and isn’t ‘team consistency’, and the last one - if all entered at the same time - will be stuck hoping it conformed to standards that at the time of entry didn’t exist.
But at this point I’m also getting tired of this entire process so I’ll be happy with whatever stock Toa.png results we get. Let’s just get it done.
5 Likes