POLL: BIONICLE G1 Canonization Contests?

LEGO BIONICLE
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I’m gonna just throw in my 2 cents on this, because I’m personally conflicted by the idea myself. As both a MOCist, and a G1 fan-fiction writer, I’m both psyched and worried respectively by the concept of canonizing official appearances for characters who’s appearances have remained largely open to interpretation for almost a decade.

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This is my version of Helryx. (Don’t worry, I’m not going in the direction you think I am.) Let’s say there was a contest to canonize Helryx’s appearance, I would definitely enter for the slim chance that the community and Greg would approve this design as canon.

As far as Helryx’s described appearance goes, this MOC fits that description well enough. But as you can see, there’s additions to her character design that could be argued as non-canon. My version has wing-fins (Like Hahli Mahri, which is possible in canon) and an additional sword in her arsenal of tools. As far as current canon is concerned, There’s nothing that says Helryx can’t look like this, and therein lies one of the problems.

What if a design wins the contest with a small design addition, like in my version of Helryx? Wouldn’t her described canon appearance have to be updated? What are the limits of this? Would the community be upset about changing a character’s described appearance because a specific MOC/Drawing won a contest?

Then you have the problem of voting. Design freedom and creative potential for people’s entries would be severely limited if the community only votes for entries that follow canon to a tee.

Plus, right now, there are hundreds, if not thousands of MOCs and Drawings people have already made for Helryx, all of which could be interpreted as canon in their own right. (I’m speaking specifically of creations people have made whose sole purpose is to replicate Helryx’s described canon appearance.) Wouldn’t it be a bit unfair to instantly de-legitimize the work put in to every single one of them in favor of one canon design?

These are the concerns I have. Personally, I don’t care either way if my MOC gets decanonized, but the idea of changing/adding things to G1 canon never did sit right with me, and feels kind of Rowling-Esque. Typically, I take Greg’s canonizations outside official writing as fanon in their own right. But seeing as sites like BS01 and the community as a whole take Greg’s word as absolute, the results of these contests are going to be taken far more seriously than they probably should be in the end.

I’m more leaning toward the mindset that we should leave G1 be, but I can also see why the TTV crew would leap at the opportunity to help expand on the lore of the best years of Bionicle, especially when their platform is the hub for it. Heck, I’d do it myself.

I voted for either way. If it happens, I’ll enter. But if it doesn’t, I admit, I’d be relieved.

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53

Something tells me that Greg will have an opinion after the first period. He’s on the site; there’s no reason he’d ignore it until then.

Also, that somewhat undermines the point of the contest, as now Greg has to see if the community agrees on it first before he can. He shouldn’t have to sit through a double vote, and if the contest exists, there shouldn’t be any question as to the chance of canonization afterwards.

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54

I’d love to have official representations, honestly, but unless there were miraculously to be canon names to differentiate pages for them, it’s probably a moot point tbh.

I’d envision it less as determining canon or not canon so much as determining the degree to which it is canon, and if there is a significant degree of disagreement as to the winner, then said winner could be relegated to a “semi-canon” category where general people are encouraged to take as being canon, but which they can ignore, should they want.

I don’t consider myself an expert in the realm of moccing, much less 3D parts (lore is where I pitch my tent), so take that element of my perspective with a grain of salt, but I’ll expand further on this:

  1. Free access to the build shouldn’t be demanded necessarily, but if it isn’t free prior to the contest, and if the one who created it does not intend to make it free even if it does win, then that should be publicly known ahead of time, so the voters can decide on whether it’s worth canonizing a piece they probably wouldn’t be able to use if they wanted to recreate the moc.
  2. If the person entering the contest is not the same as the one who made the piece, perhaps some sort of consent between the two could be sought out? Idk
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55

I can agree with that. We’ll probably need to put out a statement that RSG has no plans to reduce their prices if canonized, then. Doing so would break the agreements we’ve made with our concept artists and modelers.

That being said, this is still very much up in the air. A lot could happen between now and the contest, if the contest even happens at all. Everyone needs to wait and see where this starts heading.

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I appreciate the thought and the brainstorming in regards to this issue, but we don’t really have any interest in entertaining any sort of semi-canonicity or trying to play to both sides of the “canon debate.” Provided this poll ends favorably, we’ll be working with Greg very closely to ensure that rules, guidelines, and infrastructure are created to make sure there’s nothing that would put the MoC’s “canon credibility” into question. When community members vote in these polls, it should be done with the knowledge that they are supporting a MoC or piece of artwork to become canon in the story. There won’t be any need for a second poll bracket or anything of the sort so long as people are on the same page about that fact.

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The way I see it, the double-contest solves a problem that I would call "contest bias."By holding a MOC contest for X, you will end up with a canon MOC for X no matter what. But the MOC that is good relative to the other submissions might not be that good in absolute terms, and it might be better to wait a while for someone to come up with a better MOC. Plus, as @Gonel said, there might be designs that are divisive. I wasn’t thinking of assigning different tiers of canonicity, though.

As for 3D models, maybe the rule should be that you only need to open-source the design IF you win, which would encourage people to submit designs but still hold on to the rights in case they don’t win. @Gonel’s point number 1 is also valid.

@Mesonak In my view, the purpose of the second poll would be to decide whether the community agrees that the winner of the first contest is good enough to become canon, not to decide whether it conforms to canon. Ideally, only canon-compatible models would be entered into (much less win) the first contest.

Do not double post. -Eljay

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But this brings us back to the problem of what if a person who didn’t make the mask uses it and wins?

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I’m all for this. As a younger fan, I never had the chance to participate in the original contests, so having a chance to participate now sounds almost like a dream come true.
On top of that, the community’s activity has been very limited for the past few years, so having something like this would definitely help a lot in keeping it alive and active. This poll barely got posted less than a day ago, and I am already seeing a lot of members that have been previously inactive suddenly come back.

However, I do not believe 3D printed or custom pieces should be allowed. Not a whole a lot of people actually have access to 3D printing, and I feel like those who do would have a huge advantage over those who don’t, because their MOCs would be more accurate to the character’s description, therefore having a far greater chance of winning.
So to keep the chances of winning equal for everyone, I think 3D printed or custom pieces should’t be allowed (or at least should be very limited).

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As far as I am concerned, any potentially divisive entries would be weeded out through the voting process. For instance, I trust the community to not vote on a fully blue and red Artakha MoC built out of nothing but CCBS shells and a 3D printed modified Furno helmet. Hyperbole, I know, but the point is that participating in the polls is all that you need to do in order to make your voice heard on divisive designs.

As far as canonicity is concerned… ultimately that isn’t for the community to decide. Participating in this poll voices your opinion on whether the concept of such a thing interests you, and participating in the potential future contests would voice your opinion on what exactly you would want to see canonized, either by brainstorming a creation yourself or voting on someone else’s. Ultimately, though, the person who has the authority to look at a model and give it the thumbs up or thumbs down should be Greg and Greg alone. He does, of course, reserve the right to say “no” to the winning entry if something doesn’t jive with him. He is bound by no contract to honor the winner simply because it won, that is merely the criteria by which we present it to him, after taking care to refine a rule-set that should not run counter to anything he would prefer.

Additonally, any potential contests will be advertised well in advance across a wide variety of social media platforms, BIONICLE fan community websites, discord servers, youtube channels, and more, so anyone interested in contributing a MoC for consideration should have ample time to create it, perfect it, and submit it without having to fear that a better design will come along that could invalidate theirs. Just as there are mods and remakes to official G1 characters like the Dark Hunters, Toa, Rahi, etc., or even the recent remake of the Miserix model by the original creator, they do not overwrite the canon interpretations simply because they are better MoCs. Yet, by that same token, their existence is not threatened by subjectively “inferior” models being the canon depiction of that character, just as a large scale, white and gold Mata Nui model would not be invalidated by canon Mata Nui being Glatorian-sized and keetorange.

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You would not be allowed to submit a design for potential canonization that used a design owned by someone else. But you would be able to submit your own design without needing to give up the rights when you submitted it. You would only need to give up the rights if you won.

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In other words you win, but you don’t because your creation is utter trash. Have you seen Miserix?

More seriously, it means that the contest was all for nothing, and would eventually be redone at some point. Or, it would be disregarded entirely, and someone would be assigned to do it. I can’t think of a better way to spite the person who won than to hire someone else to make the MOC they should have made, or to nullify it entirely because it didn’t meet expectations.[quote=“Mesonak, post:61, topic:51213”]
He does, of course, reserve the right to say “no” to the winning entry if something doesn’t jive with him. He is bound by no contract to honor the winner simply because it won, that is merely the criteria by which we present it to him, after taking care to refine a rule-set that should not run counter to anything he would prefer.
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Right, there shouldn’t be a double-take to see if possibly, Greg may be satisfied with the end result if we do it again.[quote=“Mesonak, post:61, topic:51213”]
Just as there are mods and remakes to official G1 characters like the Dark Hunters, Toa, Rahi, etc., or even the recent remake of the Miserix model by the original creator, they do not overwrite the canon interpretations simply because they are better MoCs.
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Well uh, maybe in some cases we should actually do that

Every original incarnation of the Dark hunters is 100% canon, even if it by today’s (or yesteryear’s) standards nauseates most readers. In my book, Greg’s decision - yes or no - should dictate if a contest on any given character will ever happen again; namely that the end result should be ultimately final once it has been decided.

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Hiya! Russian lego fan and a mod at one of the bionicle groups on VK.com here, bringing this to people of vodkaland

I’d love to see this. Greg’s canonization efforts may be questionable by some parts of the community (with which I disagree with), but even they’d have to agree that this is a great idea, seeing how mr. Farshtey left just about everything in the hands of the community. We’re fully free to decide for ourselves on the matter and, even though there’s likely still gonna be complaints, this would be the first time we choose what’s best for us i.e. what fits the story, what looks best and so on.

I greately support this idea and would love to see it come to fruition. Personally, I’m not going to participate as my moccing prowess is, ahem, lacking, and my art basically revolves around pixels, but I know there are hundreds, if not thousands, of truly amazing moccists and artists in the community, to the point where I’d be fully comfortable leaving the depiction of even such emposing characters as Angonce or Arthakha in their hands.

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This is what i get for not practicing my art skills :sweat_smile:

i’ll try MoC-ing but i’m in the middle of 3 projects

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I wholeheartedly agree about “younger fan thing”. I am from Poland, so when I was young, even if I saw any contests (which I didn’t), I couldn’t quite know, what they’re about, because of my not so great skills in english and even if I did, my MOC’s would not be a whole-lot better from Subterranean and alikes. I also only started to take an interest in plot in 2012, when my english skills were decent enough, so I had little to no chance of entering any of these contests.

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I am not suggesting that the second contest would decide whether the winner is canon, but rather whether to submit it to Greg for approval. It would be the community’s stamp of approval. Additionally, Greg has famously said that he thinks “in words, not pictures,” so in some cases I think the community may legitimately be in a better position to judge whether a MOC has broad enough appeal to be considered official.

This is actually a good argument against holding the contests at all.

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Even though I probably won’t create stuff for these (I’ve never been one for mocing or drawing), I’d definitely love to see them happen

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I can see why you would think that, but I’m approaching it from a slightly different angle. I see justifications being thrown around for why these canon contests are a bad idea such as “It will ruin peoples’ headcanons!” or “Just let people have their MoCs!” However, I don’t really see the logic in that.

Headcanons are inherently in your head, by their very nature. They are your personal belief about something, and people embracing LEGO as a manner by which to create visualizations of BIONICLE characters for themselves is admirable and should be encouraged. However, BIONICLE is not merely a vessel for peoples’ creativity. It is also a story, a story full of facts, and rules, and a canon, and visualizations. MoCs should not be threatened by facts or canon or official rules/images/anything of the sort, because they exist outside of that space. They do not have to share the the same restrictions, because creativity is free to exist outside of those boundaries. However, just because that is true, does not mean the concept of a “canon” is pointless. It doesn’t mean that it’s a negative thing to have a visual for what Helryx, an important character in the BIONICLE story, looks like, simply because dozens of Helryx MoCs have been created since the theme was canceled.

I do not think peoples’ headcanons or personal preferences for designs should be held higher than actually having a design for a character, because they do not cancel each other out. If they did, nobody would be allowed to MoC anyone from BIONICLE; say… I dunno, Lesovikk. If I make a Lesovikk MoC and it’s 10 times better than the actual Inika template build LEGO uses, that doesn’t mean I begrudge Lesovikk for existing or wish that LEGO hadn’t given him a canon interpretation so I could headcanon a better MoC for him in my head. My Lesovikk MoC would be perfectly valid to me and how I imagine him in my head, and I can post it online for people to appreciate and analyze my building techniques. It can stand as a monument to my own creativity and the passion by which I express myself and my love for BIONICLE in physical form. That being said, I respect official products, imagery, and visuals just as much as I respect community creations and fanon, because they represent BIONICLE as a story-driven IP rather than an open-ended creative sandbox where anything goes, like Hero Factory or other LEGO themes. I respect Tahu Mata just as much as I respect “Omega Tahu” MoCs. I respect Titan Mata Nui just as much as I respect Mata Nui Robot MoCs.

This false sense of “canon is bad, creativity good” whilst also simultaneously arguing the point of “creativity is fragile and will be threatened by making things official” is a circular road to nowhere that discredits and devalues both our love for BIONICLE as a story-driven IP with established characters, as well as the mountain of creative works that came out whilst the theme was ongoing, let alone over the last decade. Having a canon is good just as much as having a headcanon is good.

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I voted no.

Perhaps because I am tired of BIONICLE as a whole and would rather keep it nicely as a memory. Perhaps because I’d rather not tarnish the memory I had of it with further debate and discussion. But mostly because the line is finished, and I’ve largely moved on. Yes, I’ll still build and write fan stories for them, but in the end I think the sun should set.

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AAAAALLLLL ABOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA

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I’m actually not worried about canonized MOCs ruining headcanon or stifling creativity. I don’t think that they would. As you said, nothing has ever stopped people from making remixed versions of existing models. I am also not worried about “invalidating” existing MOCs of e.g. Helryx. A good MOC is a good MOC.

Actually, yes, I think your view begs the question of whether there is a point to having something ordained as canon in the first place. The purpose of canon is precisely to restrict interpretation to some extent, so that you can say “oh, that’s what Helryx looks like.” This can be a delight when done well. It’s why people make books into movies. However, you do pay a price, in that the canon interpretation will inevitably be incompatible with some people’s personal interpretations (I, for one, do not care for the Harry Potter movies).

My concern is to minimize that price as much as possible, by using redundant levels of quality control and ensuring that a broad range of people approve of a canon design. You can say that making a MOC canon doesn’t stop people from having their own interpretation… and of course that’s true, but if it doesn’t lead to some consensus in the community about what Helryx “actually” looks like, then there is simply no point. It is fundamentally a trade-off between two competing goals: subjectivity and objectivity. You cannot have 100% of both.

In short, I don’t mind declaring something canon, but only if I think it’s really awesome. If I don’t think it’s awesome, then I would rather it not be canon at all. And of course the problem is that everyone has his/her own subjective definition of “awesome.”

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