You would not be allowed to submit a design for potential canonization that used a design owned by someone else. But you would be able to submit your own design without needing to give up the rights when you submitted it. You would only need to give up the rights if you won.
In other words you win, but you don’t because your creation is utter trash. Have you seen Miserix?
More seriously, it means that the contest was all for nothing, and would eventually be redone at some point. Or, it would be disregarded entirely, and someone would be assigned to do it. I can’t think of a better way to spite the person who won than to hire someone else to make the MOC they should have made, or to nullify it entirely because it didn’t meet expectations.[quote=“Mesonak, post:61, topic:51213”]
He does, of course, reserve the right to say “no” to the winning entry if something doesn’t jive with him. He is bound by no contract to honor the winner simply because it won, that is merely the criteria by which we present it to him, after taking care to refine a rule-set that should not run counter to anything he would prefer.
[/quote]
Right, there shouldn’t be a double-take to see if possibly, Greg may be satisfied with the end result if we do it again.[quote=“Mesonak, post:61, topic:51213”]
Just as there are mods and remakes to official G1 characters like the Dark Hunters, Toa, Rahi, etc., or even the recent remake of the Miserix model by the original creator, they do not overwrite the canon interpretations simply because they are better MoCs.
[/quote]
Well uh, maybe in some cases we should actually do that
Every original incarnation of the Dark hunters is 100% canon, even if it by today’s (or yesteryear’s) standards nauseates most readers. In my book, Greg’s decision - yes or no - should dictate if a contest on any given character will ever happen again; namely that the end result should be ultimately final once it has been decided.
1 Like
Hiya! Russian lego fan and a mod at one of the bionicle groups on VK.com here, bringing this to people of vodkaland
I’d love to see this. Greg’s canonization efforts may be questionable by some parts of the community (with which I disagree with), but even they’d have to agree that this is a great idea, seeing how mr. Farshtey left just about everything in the hands of the community. We’re fully free to decide for ourselves on the matter and, even though there’s likely still gonna be complaints, this would be the first time we choose what’s best for us i.e. what fits the story, what looks best and so on.
I greately support this idea and would love to see it come to fruition. Personally, I’m not going to participate as my moccing prowess is, ahem, lacking, and my art basically revolves around pixels, but I know there are hundreds, if not thousands, of truly amazing moccists and artists in the community, to the point where I’d be fully comfortable leaving the depiction of even such emposing characters as Angonce or Arthakha in their hands.
4 Likes
This is what i get for not practicing my art skills 
i’ll try MoC-ing but i’m in the middle of 3 projects
I wholeheartedly agree about “younger fan thing”. I am from Poland, so when I was young, even if I saw any contests (which I didn’t), I couldn’t quite know, what they’re about, because of my not so great skills in english and even if I did, my MOC’s would not be a whole-lot better from Subterranean and alikes. I also only started to take an interest in plot in 2012, when my english skills were decent enough, so I had little to no chance of entering any of these contests.
2 Likes
I am not suggesting that the second contest would decide whether the winner is canon, but rather whether to submit it to Greg for approval. It would be the community’s stamp of approval. Additionally, Greg has famously said that he thinks “in words, not pictures,” so in some cases I think the community may legitimately be in a better position to judge whether a MOC has broad enough appeal to be considered official.
This is actually a good argument against holding the contests at all.
1 Like
Even though I probably won’t create stuff for these (I’ve never been one for mocing or drawing), I’d definitely love to see them happen
1 Like
I can see why you would think that, but I’m approaching it from a slightly different angle. I see justifications being thrown around for why these canon contests are a bad idea such as “It will ruin peoples’ headcanons!” or “Just let people have their MoCs!” However, I don’t really see the logic in that.
Headcanons are inherently in your head, by their very nature. They are your personal belief about something, and people embracing LEGO as a manner by which to create visualizations of BIONICLE characters for themselves is admirable and should be encouraged. However, BIONICLE is not merely a vessel for peoples’ creativity. It is also a story, a story full of facts, and rules, and a canon, and visualizations. MoCs should not be threatened by facts or canon or official rules/images/anything of the sort, because they exist outside of that space. They do not have to share the the same restrictions, because creativity is free to exist outside of those boundaries. However, just because that is true, does not mean the concept of a “canon” is pointless. It doesn’t mean that it’s a negative thing to have a visual for what Helryx, an important character in the BIONICLE story, looks like, simply because dozens of Helryx MoCs have been created since the theme was canceled.
I do not think peoples’ headcanons or personal preferences for designs should be held higher than actually having a design for a character, because they do not cancel each other out. If they did, nobody would be allowed to MoC anyone from BIONICLE; say… I dunno, Lesovikk. If I make a Lesovikk MoC and it’s 10 times better than the actual Inika template build LEGO uses, that doesn’t mean I begrudge Lesovikk for existing or wish that LEGO hadn’t given him a canon interpretation so I could headcanon a better MoC for him in my head. My Lesovikk MoC would be perfectly valid to me and how I imagine him in my head, and I can post it online for people to appreciate and analyze my building techniques. It can stand as a monument to my own creativity and the passion by which I express myself and my love for BIONICLE in physical form. That being said, I respect official products, imagery, and visuals just as much as I respect community creations and fanon, because they represent BIONICLE as a story-driven IP rather than an open-ended creative sandbox where anything goes, like Hero Factory or other LEGO themes. I respect Tahu Mata just as much as I respect “Omega Tahu” MoCs. I respect Titan Mata Nui just as much as I respect Mata Nui Robot MoCs.
This false sense of “canon is bad, creativity good” whilst also simultaneously arguing the point of “creativity is fragile and will be threatened by making things official” is a circular road to nowhere that discredits and devalues both our love for BIONICLE as a story-driven IP with established characters, as well as the mountain of creative works that came out whilst the theme was ongoing, let alone over the last decade. Having a canon is good just as much as having a headcanon is good.
8 Likes
I voted no.
Perhaps because I am tired of BIONICLE as a whole and would rather keep it nicely as a memory. Perhaps because I’d rather not tarnish the memory I had of it with further debate and discussion. But mostly because the line is finished, and I’ve largely moved on. Yes, I’ll still build and write fan stories for them, but in the end I think the sun should set.
7 Likes
AAAAALLLLL ABOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA
I’m actually not worried about canonized MOCs ruining headcanon or stifling creativity. I don’t think that they would. As you said, nothing has ever stopped people from making remixed versions of existing models. I am also not worried about “invalidating” existing MOCs of e.g. Helryx. A good MOC is a good MOC.
Actually, yes, I think your view begs the question of whether there is a point to having something ordained as canon in the first place. The purpose of canon is precisely to restrict interpretation to some extent, so that you can say “oh, that’s what Helryx looks like.” This can be a delight when done well. It’s why people make books into movies. However, you do pay a price, in that the canon interpretation will inevitably be incompatible with some people’s personal interpretations (I, for one, do not care for the Harry Potter movies).
My concern is to minimize that price as much as possible, by using redundant levels of quality control and ensuring that a broad range of people approve of a canon design. You can say that making a MOC canon doesn’t stop people from having their own interpretation… and of course that’s true, but if it doesn’t lead to some consensus in the community about what Helryx “actually” looks like, then there is simply no point. It is fundamentally a trade-off between two competing goals: subjectivity and objectivity. You cannot have 100% of both.
In short, I don’t mind declaring something canon, but only if I think it’s really awesome. If I don’t think it’s awesome, then I would rather it not be canon at all. And of course the problem is that everyone has his/her own subjective definition of “awesome.”
2 Likes
However, you do pay a price, in that the canon interpretation will inevitably be incompatible with some people’s personal interpretations
Isn’t there an entire slew of interprative Tahu/Jaller/Takanuva/Whoever-else’s mocs that look nothing like the original material? Just cuz there’s going to be a canon interpretation of a character doesn’t mean it will stop some of the more creative people from shining through with their ideas.
In short, I don’t mind declaring something canon, but only if I think it’s really awesome. If I don’t think it’s awesome, then I would rather it not be canon at all. And of course the problem is that everyone has his/her own subjective definition of “awesome.”
That’s why community would be deciding together, no? No one being here is gonna be responsible for a change as big as this. We’ll judge these together as united whole to keep as many people as we can happy 
2 Likes
I think that’s an interesting viewpoint, and seems to work well enough for MOCs, (and you’ve gone a long way to changing my mind on that matter–although I do still think that for characters that are part of the team or a set, their “official”/“canon” builds should match the that of the characters we do have official appearances for, to maintain a sense of cohesion).
However, that does not account so much for the lore aspect of things, wherein there can only really be one canon. As someone whose primary interest in Bionicle is oriented around telling stories more than building characters, I often endeavor to work strictly within the confines of the lore, and so am inclined to be protective of it. This is not to say that I don’t want to see additions made; I absolutely do. But the way we go about it should be very thoughtful, and will inevitably require thorough community discussion among those who likewise consider themselves invested in Bionicle lore.
Although the idea of a semicanon isn’t necessarily pretty, I throw it out because there’s already a precedence for it in the Xian Weapons Contest, most of whose entries had accompanying backstories and concepts, but who, for various circumstances, were relegated to a “semicanon” role. So, when I refer to a semicanon, I mean more regarding lore.
Anyway, though, I know that idea isn’t the most appealing. Regardless, overall, I think a great deal of thought should be placed into what storyline additions are included. I’m all for storyline additions, and I think there are some aspects that could really afford fleshing out (I’m a sucker for the aforementioned OOMN contest idea, for example, although I’d categorize that as a radical addition), but overall, this power of canonization should only be used to complement, complete, or streamline standing lore. To this end, we should agree on what’s worth canonizing before we get carried away.
2 Likes
That’s not the point I’m making. No one is suggesting that you are not allowed (how would that even work?) to make an alternate MOC of a character because it has a canon version. My point is that if the canon version is not authoritative in some sense, then it undermines what it means to be canon at all.
To me, if Helryx has a canon MOC, that means that that model is a design that all Bionicle fans use as a reference. It does not stop me from having my own headcanon design, building a remixed version, or disregarding it completely. But when I talk about Helryx with other fans, I know that that is the design that will pop first into their heads. If there is too great a risk that the MOC will not be up to my standards, then I would rather leave it completely up to personal interpretation.
I should probably restate my question for staff to see - I don’t know is an answer, but it was likely buried amidst all the other replies.
And I’d like to ask as well, would literature contests be considered? They are just as monumental as definitive character representation and can add large chunks of lore through implications, and writing is primarily what Greg has done in the past, so he would be an excellent judge.
1 Like
Yeah, but what are the odds it’ll flop though? I’m sure there’s plenty of folks who’d love to contribute their designs. Surely the one to win is gonna be up to the par, no?
I really like this Idea.
But 3D printed pieces need rules.
If a potential MoC with 3D parts is in the poll, the creator of the piece needs to sanction it’s use. Proof has to be provided. No exceptions, no matter how good it is.
I think it is important that Creators understand that if they put a design in and it gets canonized, then it is going to be ripped off. You don’t have to release the model, but people are going to use your design. It is Canon. If people want to complete a collection than they are going to need one, and they will pick the cheapest option. For some, they’ll buy it from the source. Others are going to make their own.
So creators must remember that they will be incentivising this kind of behavior.
I don’t see the big deal. Full disclosure, I really don’t care about Greg’s stamp of canon nor do I see the point in holding contests to decide the “canon” appearances of characters that have not been in any media for the last decade or will be in any media for the future. I don’t foresee anyone feeling restricted to stop making their interpretation of Bionicle characters, that has always been the case even for characters with sets. I just don’t see the point in a contest where the incentive is just their moc picture on the wiki article.
If this was something like a Dark Hunters or Rahi contest then I would be interested just for the novelty of seeing what kind of bio Greg would come up with as if the entries were a part of the original contests.
Oh and I think 3d/custom parts should be allowed. If only for the many wonderful masks that have been created. You can decide the limits or whatever, but I think it would be a shame to deny it for reasons of purity when this is a community contest rather than an official Lego one.
3 Likes
I am going to jump in this. Wow, I have not been on these message boards for years…
I am KhingK, a fellow 3D modeler in the Bionicle community. As you know, the whole 3D printing parts issue is definitely a hot debate on this topic which caught my attention.
I’m going to present which option I voted: I voted no.
“Well KhingK, wouldn’t you like to see your masks made canon?” No. I don’t.
Here’s my long explanation on why.
Even though I’ve modeled plenty of masks in the past, the mask themselves are simply fan-made creations. They are my headcanon and other people’s headcanons (if they choose to accept it as theirs of course). People have different interpretations/depictions of how the Bionicle G1 canon should look like or how it should have ended. What they interpret and how they depict it is ultimately their choice. And what does that do? It actually drives creativity. As we have seen since the last canon update to Bionicle, plenty of MOCists, Artists, and 3D modelers, including myself, have created numerous masterpieces over the years to tell the story of Bionicle from their perspective. It gives us something to talk about especially when we are filled with that nostalgia for the beloved franchise.
The introduction of new canon content seems like a good thing, but, Lego hasn’t touched the franchise of Bionicle in such a long time. That means there is a lack of new Bionicle parts or new Bionicle content with the Lego seal of approval on it.
“But wait, can’t we just use existing parts that we already have?” Yes and no.
Yes if you’re going for a simple character like a Rahi or even a Dark Hunter. That could potentially slide. But when it comes to a character (like Tuyet or Orde) that contains other pieces that are both important to the character and lack visual depiction, that is when there’s a problem.
Case 1: We cannot simply depict Tuyet with any kind of mask. No no no. She needs a Mask of Intangibility which we have no depiction of. Now, 3D printed masks can certainly be a solution to this issue but adding the “canon” label could potentially bring about plenty of issues.
“Since my headcanon is now canon, it is clearly the top favorite design!” or “My mask is canon, you can buy it now for $100!”
I understand the optimism behind the new frontier of 3D printed parts, but canonizing such designs can upset people and people can take advantage of that “canon” label to do plenty of things. In the past, the contests were okay because they used existing Lego parts that benefited Lego. But with the introduction of 3D printed parts, that could potentially benefit the person who 3D modeled those parts. Furthermore, it can be unfair for others who might not have the same experience in the 3D modeling realm. “Why should I even compete when this dude modeled his own Mask of Intangibility to go along with his Tuyet MOC?”
I have heard people saying, “those 3D modelers need to make their models public domain if they plan to have their 3D printed parts canon!”
Well, that is great and all, but I can see loopholes in that. Some 3D modelers are not so comfortable with giving out models as they want to make some profit out of them in some capacity. 3D modelers can make the claim that their models would be public but then, later on, smack a big price tag and keep others from getting it unless they pay for it. These are just some scenarios that might happen.
Case 2: With a visual depiction of Orde, for example, a lot of additional information would need to be canonized. Orde, as we know, is a Toa of Psionics. In the lore, we have no information regarding what mask he wore or what tools he used. Bringing in a visual depiction of Orde would require not only his visual depiction to be canon, but also the selection of his masks and weapons to be canon. For some, this may not seem to be a big deal, but for the others, people might argue, “Wait a minute, I always saw him wearing a Sanok, why is he being canonized wearing a Kaukau?!” or “I always saw him using a sword, not a mace. The books clearly show his personality to be more of a swordfighter!”. These visual depictions would be bringing in a lot more canon information along with the image. It will certainly fill in the gaps of the Bionicle lore, but it could conflict with people’s headcanons and have people tirelessly arguing and disagreeing.
As a long time fan of Bionicle who loves the Bionicle lore, I feel like the canon should be shaped by what we, as an individual, believe to be the canon. We can have our own beliefs of how Bionicle G1 should have ended or how the Red Star being a zombie space station was the worst decision ever made (I’m kidding). At the end of the day, the canon is forged by us and having all of these different interpretations presented in creative ways keep the community alive. A “canon” label is simply not necessary.
I find enjoyment behind the mystery and “plot holes” left by the Bionicle franchise and all of that should be preserved.
I have spoken.
Edit:
@Wolk I am okay if people decide to use the masks in the contests since it is their choice to do so. Like, that’s great on them and it’s their choice to use it. I’m not going to scream at them saying, “TAKE THAT DOWN!” No, it’s part of their artistic creation. However, I do not want “canonization contests” to have other people’s headcanons basically smashed into pieces. Also, if I had one of my fan-made masks made canon, some people might disagree with that depiction and criticize me and my creations. It is something I wouldn’t want happening honestly.
@Virdamo
That doesn’t really solve anything since now people have the capabilities of turning artwork into 3D models. I modeled Nikila’s mask into a 3D model for people to 3D print freely which gained a lot of popularity. People might race to be the first ones to model the parts in the artwork in order to ■■■■■ the market. Additionally, what stops people from just submitting a 3D render of their depiction? “Since I have a 3D printable model to go alongside my artwork, it is much better than everyone else!” When people see that a visual depiction is viable for MOCing (even if it isn’t a physical MOC or the MOC contains 3d printed parts), that may carry more weight than an artwork that might be impossible to make or an artwork that doesn’t have a 3D model.
@Flux
It is true that in canon, the shape of the mask does not necessarily tell us the Kanohi power (as shown with Krakua and Norik, as you have said). However, how long can we honestly get away with that? Like, in my opinion, I wouldn’t want to stick a Kaukau on to Tuyet and say, “well she’s wearing the Mask of Intangibility but it is in the shape of a Kaukau”. It is kind of silly. At least the Toa Hagah had a canon explanation for why they did that (which was to honor a past hero). In the context of Tuyet, it wouldn’t really make any sense unless we would have to throw down additional information regarding that. And if something like that was to go forward, is every character now suddenly honoring past heroes with their masks?
I know MOCs in the past have used existing masks to depict Tuyet (which is understandable since 3D printing hasn’t become a big thing at the time). But with 3D printing being a whole new frontier for making completely new Kanohi designs, it gives a greater opportunity for people to give a Kanohi mask a “proper depiction” instead of having to rely on existing mask parts and throwing in that canon “Mask shape honoring” excuse. I mean, that’s why 3D printing became a popular thing in the Bionicle community to begin with.
@Flux
In response to your reply, I am not against people using existing masks nor am I against people using the 3D printed masks. The issue though is when people who have 3D printed masks may be favored more than someone using an existing mask. Kanohi masks carry a lot of weight since they basically define the character. When you look at a person, what is usually the first thing you remember about them? Their faces. Same thing applies here. It is great and all that MOCists can be creative with using existing masks or build their own mask using existing parts, but having to compete with 3D modelers or people who simply buy a 3D printed mask can cut down all the effort that a MOCist might have done since a 3D printed part may be more aesthetically pleasing. I am not saying it is not entirely impossible for someone to use an existing mask or a custom built mask via existing parts and win contests. But, 3D modelers and people with enough money can shape pieces to be whatever shape they like with more flexibility than MOCists who might only have existing parts to work with.
11 Likes
I’d definetely write some things if the answer is yes, but I can understand if people are concerned about retroactively adding lore so late after the stories ended.