Any word on when these contests will come about? I really want to submit my Artakha! And a few others.
This is literally the poll to decide if they happen at all. The poll is going to end in 15 days. So no, there is no set time, assuming they happen at all.
I’d like to issue a correction on my previous post.
It was around 4 years ago, time flies
Why Lego as a company is important.
That is what I mean with a difference in perspective, I read that as a contradiction. If Lego is finished with Bionicle there’s no matrioska type thing were now Greg is the last standing authority, it ended. Greg still works at Lego as an editorial director but not for G1’s Bionicle because it is not an active line for the Lego group.
If the line is still running and Greg is the head of it where is the official site or announcements on official Lego channels? Why the situation is completely different from what it was in 2008?
Greg is only able to speak to us on a fan site.
The fact that Greg (as an individual and not a spokesman from Lego) is hosted on TTV is lucky for us but it doesn’t mean anything officially for Lego, he is talking to us through non official channels, not from a Lego platform or a recognised Lego Group account on something like twitter. If he wasn’t invited here after the shut down of LMB (and he was there just so he could reconnect with the fanbase in preparation for G2, after the original bionicle site was literally shut down by Lego and then reinstated as the G2 site) we wouldn’t have any ‘official news’, he is no spokesman for the Lego company, all of this falls exactly in the same category as everything said and done after G1’s ending, it is a courtesy to fans, a way to remain in contact with the fan community he helped creating and to keep it alive because it is fun, it inspires creativity and he’s happy to be with people who enjoy his legacy.
Until there is an official Lego announcement on their platform or from one of their accounts stating that the account Greg has on TTV messageboards, speaks for the company and it’s a recognised representative of the Lego Group, it is no ‘Official Canon’. The company infrastructure is missing, Lego is a company, a company is made of individuals but that doesn’t mean individual=company. TTV is great but it is a fan platform and this is exactly why Greg can be here talking. What is said here will probably never reach at least 80% of the Bionicle fandom, people who would instead be reached by official announcements from the Lego Group, Tv spots, Lego magazine ecc…
Did I manage to get my point across? What I mean by official canon? Like many others I always considered TTV simply as another fangroup, a great one at that and now even better because it hosts a sort of Ask Greg, but not related to Lego itself, and that’s the same for Lego, this is a fan community and that’s why he is free to talk as an individual, not as a Lego editorial Director speaking for the Company.
This is why Lego as a Company is a fundamental concept for G1 Bionicle official canon. You don’t like the term official canon? Should we call it the ‘normie canon’? Should we call everything said here and the contests as a sort of TTV canon? Because I can assure you that, for the majority of Bionicle fans, it will just be that, if they even know that such a contest is being held to begin with.
I personally prefer it, i accept the word of Greg but we should make a clear distinction between official and not official, at least that’s the way I feel about this.
I’m sure others like ajtazt could articulate this a lot better and in a more concise way, but I did my best, it is at least better than my previous post, that’s for certain. I was really tired.
So here’s where I think the misunderstanding is coming from. Lego the company has never cared what was or was not Canon, that power was given solely to Greg ages ago when the original series of Canon Contests occurred. Why? Because Lego’s system for designing Bionicle was as follows:
1)Set Designers would be given some pieces and Faber’s concept art and told to “make it.”
2) Greg and the story team would build the next year of story around the sets they were given, as closely as possible.
Lego has always had a top-down approach to Bionicle, which is to say that Lego proper wouldn’t have cared if there was a Canon at all. They made sets, the story team made story, and if that same system were in place today Greg would still be making all the canonization decisions on behalf of lego.
The idea that he’s not talking to us through official channels is valid only until you understand the hoops that were jumped through, rules that were instated, and things that had to happen in order to just make it so Greg could sign up. Greg’s posting on TTV are as much a form of official communications as we’re ever going to get. Greg was not just allowed to be on the site because he could. Lego’s corporate body had to approve him making an account here, for the exact reasons you’re mentioning now and because of the fact that he is a representative of the company. So yes, while he doesn’t necessarily have the backing of the Lego corporate body in every decision or statement he makes, to discount his word now simply because he doesn’t is to discount every clarifying statement he has ever made. It’s to discount everything he said on BZP, every canon contest that was hosted there. I can assure you now that plenty of “Canon” things never got any kind of official call out by Lego on the Bionicle Website or their official accounts.
So while I agree with you in theory, the past Fifteen to Twenty years have created a precedent entirely separate from what you’re proposing. Greg is the arbiter of Canon, it’s been widely accepted that he is such and so when things such as these are considered, it’s because if Greg considers it Canon, that may as well be Lego considering it canon. Once again, Because Lego acted through Greg.
For a non-bionicle example, I am a sales rep for a company. If I quote a price to a customer my Company’s approval is implicitly implied by my acting as an agent for the Company. Greg is still an Agent for Lego, and believe me when I say that his presence on this site is about as official as it could ever be made. Greg still has the authority to speak on behalf of Lego, that hasn’t changed just because Lego no longer produces the line.
If Marvel stopped making comics 20 years ago, would Stan Lee no longer have been an authority on comics just because Marvel’s Corporate Body stopped? Explicit endorsement will never happen, but Lego has implicitly endorsed these contests as evidenced by the fact that Greg was open to them and he’s still on this site.
To think that Greg didn’t have to go to anyone in Lego to make sure that it would be fine before he gave the go ahead to vote on it here is a huge fallacy. He’s still employed by Lego, he’s one of the executives at this point. His position in the company alone implies that he can do this.
TL;DR, Greg wasn’t allowed to be here unless we worked to make our site follow Lego’s very explicitly stated Rules. The fact that he is still here implies that Lego is perfectly comfortable with whatever actions he is taking. His position at Lego implies that he is the sole arbiter of Canon not just for Bionicle, but for all of Lego’s branding.
The Validity of Greg as a a person who can authorize what is or isn’t Canon should never be brought into question because of that. He has Lego’s approval or he wouldn’t have said yes to the idea in the first place.
Feel free to disagree on other reasoning, I even agree with some of what you’ve said! But the argument stemming from Greg being/not being a representative of Lego is entirely misplaced.
If the argument is “we need to make a distinction between what is and isn’t official because Greg cannot decide that” then I would recommend going forward that you automatically assume that anything not explicitly mentioned in story serials, books, movies, or comics to be entirely non-canon. Cause there’s a LOT of world building that never got put in those.
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Me too man
I just, I think I don’t know how to explain it well.
I feel like too much time has passed and too many things have changed to still be accepting of the idea of the implicit endorsment.
I agree with the entire first segment, great explanation by the way, I know and agree with all that stuff but [quote=“Kini_Hawkeye, post:278, topic:51213”]
if that same system were in place today Greg would still be making all the canonization decisions on behalf of lego
[/quote]
the system is no more in place, there’s only Greg now and the line is over.
I understand your point with the officiality of Greg’s position, but here[quote=“Kini_Hawkeye, post:278, topic:51213”]
It’s to discount everything he said on BZP, every canon contest that was hosted there. I can assure you now that plenty of “Canon” things never got any kind of official call out by Lego on the Bionicle Website or their official accounts.
[/quote]
That is not what i meant. My point is about time frames and how it affects it all, while the line was running there was no need for ‘official confirmation’ on anything because the fact that the line was still running was confirmation in and of itself. After the line ended however things change. I feel like you guys probably view things more or less like how I previously stated [quote=“Husk, post:273, topic:51213”]
Is it then that for you what Greg says after G1 ended is perceived as if nothing changed, as if these things were said (or example) in 2008?
[/quote]
But he is alone now, separated from the system and everything else that was in place and working along side him befor the line was discontinued, for this I say it is not the same Bionicle Canon as when the rest of the infrastructure was in place.
Lego acted through Greg, it is not still acting. But I get it, for you it makes no difference, it is just strange to me that you would consider this a natural continuation of G1’s canon as if nothing happened even though everything happened, line ended, project closed and only one man remained to smooth the abrupt ending with the serials and aswering questions as a courtesy to fans. You feel like the important part (Greg) is still here so it’s fine while I feel that the Official Lego Canon from G1 would only be continued if every aspect of the infrastructure become a whole once again.
The argument is not that, I’m sorry if I couldn’t explain any better.
While the line was still alive, Greg and the story team could decide that. The point is that something concrete happened (line discontinued), time passed and things changed as you acknowledge here yourself[quote=“Kini_Hawkeye, post:278, topic:51213”]
the past Fifteen to Twenty years have created a precedent entirely separate from what you’re proposing.
[/quote]
The argument is: I feel like we should differenciate between what came before and after the ending of G1, everything up to that point is canon by default unless later stated by the owner of the IP, so no issue with the old contests or the implicit worldbuilding.
Alas I don’t want to come off as the annoying one monopolizing the thread entrenched in his own rederick, I tried to explain myself as best as possible, at this point I feel like I would simply repeat too many things and that’d be irritating for anyone.
Anyway thanks for taking the time to read my posts, it has been a nice time. The contests will be done, that I knew, I was just advocating for some steps to be taken in order to make things more “defined” one could say. One thing I wish someone would consider is the minimum voters treshold thing, but seeing as how that is related to the canon aspect I doubt anyone would care.
I eagerly await to see all the amazing interpretations that this contest will give birth to.
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It is based on how it has been used in this topic and Youtube comments. Only restated in a more definitive and clear manner as others where either unable to state them as effectively or unwilling to define what they meant. A construct of the community collective based on the discussions thus far.
In case it was missed, it was stated as, “So, let’s establish the floor, shall we?” Not I, but the larger whole, as best as I as was able to understand from their positions. And thus allow them to correct it or decided if that is not the floor to be established.
It seems an accusatory tone is the most accepted one here, so very well. In reference to the bold, who are you accusing? Me or the argument/concept?
Yes, you are taking things out of context of what was said, both within the post itself and within the topic and discussion. Unless I otherwise explicit state something as my beliefs, thoughts, or opinion, never treat it as such. The argument and I are not one in the same, nor did I state it as my own. Though which ever you are attacking, neither I nor the argument is doing what you claimed.
You want my opinion, my argument? That was the conclusion, the ending two paragraphs where I very clearly claim it as my own.
[quote]Regardless of what perspective is taken, be it these few mentioned or others further expanded, it will have an affect. For some, it will actively discourage and for others it may springboard new creation. And if the goal was to spur on creation, then by all means, I would say yes. But at this point, to add to canon in such a way, I would have to say no. Too much time has passed, too much has changed. Canon, as is, has inspired many before and it will continue to do so without the need of such additions.
Or perhaps I’m completely wrong. It seems the possible power to have such influence over a stopped story has brought many to life. Maybe it’s legitimate or we still have hungry sharks seeking something to hold over others. Hopefully I am wrong in that aspect. But it does feel to me a lot like others asking Greg questions to get credit for certain things canonized rather than for the good of the fans.[/quote]
In which nowhere do I claim or even indicate that I believe Greg does not have the ability to official decide canon in the matter of this contest were it to happen. If that were the case, surely it would have been included as reason for why I voted against such a contest. Yet based on the final sentence, it could be more inferred that I take Greg’s word as canon.
The only other time I give my opinion in that post is an example of how I would feel about these missing visuals finally being given something. The MOCing perspective section to be specific, only in the first paragraph. The remaining portion goes back to articulating the collective thoughts thus far and trying to better present it.
You clearly take this entire thing as my beliefs, but even if that was the case you ignore the crucial ending sentence of the paragraph that has shaken you.
It is for neither. It only acknowledges that in a debate both could make good cases, yet then dismisses one side. That side dismissed being that Greg does not have authority over canon. And if the goal of mine, the post’s collected community thoughts, or the argument’s goal to just discredit him completely, why was it not a bigger deal? Why such a small focus, minor side comment?
Now then, if we look at the argument itself, it also does not try to discredit Greg. As previously explained, based on the definitions supplied, everything Greg has done for Bionicle from while it was active to after discontinuation was under proper authority. While it can be questioned, from the argument’s perspective, if he still has permission to answer questions/give clarifications here on TTV, the argument can easily accept it as being proper given Greg’s previous stipulations for being on sites. The only thing it questions is whether Greg has the power to make fan created content, as of right now, canon.
~mutters something about a typo and how there shouldn’t be a space in the “anymore” there~
It does not question what was done in the past as it fits the definition of canon. But as of now, if his only authority is to answer questions, to give clarity, that is not the same thing as making fan content as official content. It does not seek to discredit, but ask if his word is still good in that specific area.
In which there is a very easy counter if it the goal is only for character visualizations. Because then it can be just frame around as someone asking Greg if this is what the character would look like and him saying yes. As far as the argument would be concerned, in that light, Greg is only giving clarification. And last it check, clarification is a definitive power he has left.
For whose who actually agree with the argument or think like the argument, I can’t say if that would be enough for them. Just like the Lego Twitter account, it may be or may not, I don’t know. I only proceeded to further represent the argument and concept to clarify its potential stance. I am so often a devil’s advocate, he would who represent those silenced, dismissed, or unable to properly represent themselves.
All I can say is that you are very quick to become Greg’s white knight as though protecting him from some vicious dragon. When in fact it much more like you’re Don Quixote fighting a windmill in Greg’s honor. You’ve gone against an illusionary foe, twisting and selective reading for reasons unknown. And ignored both the ending of the first reply to you as well as the reply to Var’s, an attempt to move it back onto the primary topic.
I only reply and continue now in this instance to clear my name, since you seem to think me the villain. I am not someone who is here to destroy Greg, nor discredit everything he has done. After this, I will say no more on the matter for it has gone on long enough.
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The argument really boils down to how you feel about “official.” Obviously in your case official means “recognized by the owner of the IP” while for me, official is more “Recognised by the man who wrote it.” Both are entirely valid points of view, the problem simply arises from the fact that Lego the corporation will never acknowledge anything, so we kind of have to default to their given representative.
I do agree on the minimum voter threshold, I feel that by and large TTV’s boards community is far too small of a sample size to accurately gauge how the community as a whole feels, but as we’ve already had numerous attempts to register duplicate accounts and swing the voting just in this poll alone, at least for the time being we need to make sure we can keep the poll as accurate as possible.
And don’t feel bad about engaging the conversation! These are the conversations that need to happen. As I stated earlier, I think the knee-jerk “NO” reaction from some people is entirely un-productive. Conversations such as these can both contextualize people’s opinions as well as lead to better understanding among everyone here. I for one am quite happy that you decided to offer your opinions.
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Originally I voted yes but after reading stuff that the moderators have been posting I have to say I just disagree. I don’t think any mods should be taking such strong stances because it’s just gonna be a BZP popularity contest, with the mods most likely winning. Which honestly feels like what they’re trying to ensure. Lets just let it die. We can’t agree. We can still do ‘fan fav’ moc contests but lets not do ‘canon’ contests.
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Fun fact, most of the Mods here can’t MoC.
Go ahead and breeze through any of our profiles - with the exception of Ven, Eljay, and Var, none of us can moc to save our lives. Seriously. None of us really 3D model either.
And let’s face it. Any contest is going to be a popularity contest. Sure there are steps we can take to ensure it doesn’t become that, but we’re still in the ideas stage right now. If it’s a genuine concern we bake in rules that TTV board moderators can’t enter, easy fix.
I don’t think it’ll come to that though cause historically us mods ain’t that popular.
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I’ve never been around for G1 contests. I voted yes because having one this high profile seems fun. On the other hand, I can’t take seriously the idea that a decade on after G1’s death that any one person holds the key to authoritative retro canonization, especially when by greg’s own admission most plot points and unresolved issues that people ask about were never even planned out to begin with, like much of the story. What makes canon relevant in the first place is its potential consequence to the future of the story because it necessarily binds that future to some established continuity or consistency. But the official story’s over. And there is no more consequence to adding more canon, I don’t care what greg’s title is at lego. I.e., there’s literally no difference from if the new canon wasn’t there - except that it now binds a fan consensus on their expectations of previously open ended interpretations of those things. Hearing greg’s take on these things after the fact - informative? Sometimes. Canon? Nah.
That being said, a contest for strictly the moc representation of nonset characters seems fairly benign.
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Hm, yeah, come to think of it, if a contest were open vote, then people active in a variety of forums etc. would likely have a sizeable advantage over people who don’t…
Similarly if someone made themselves unpopular for whatever reason somewhere in the past, that could also influence a vote.
Unfortunately there’s not much of a way around these things nowadays…
What if the MOC/Art creators’ identities remained anonymous during the initial vote, and then they were given credit after the fact? That way there would be no bias against the contestant and the judgement of the entry would be as objective as possible.
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I second this.
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Sounds like a good solution, but I don’t know how that would be possible. I don’t know how you would be able to post a MOC (especially on a site like this) without showing the user who posted it.
The entries could be submitted through a third party, like the Mods.
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Not entirely sure if it would be really possible to do that. Who’s gonna be able to control if the people behind the entries don’t self-advertise directly or indirectly elsewhere?
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I think that anonymously submitting entry is silly, if I were to win a hypothetical contest, I’d want people to know that it was my hard work that got me there.
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Which is why I said their identities would be revealed afterwards
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To add on to that, many moccists have rather recognizable mocs/moccing styles.
For example, I’m fairly confident that I could recognize most MOCs by Gilalu. And because I recognize him, that could influence my vote, even unintentionally.
But there’s no actual point to having the contestants hidden. It just overcomplicates things.
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