BIONICLE Canon Contest #3: Honor Guard, Part 2 (Art) + Part 1 Winners

[TheJerminator]

@toaskello

who’s negatively impacted here?

Anyone who voted for that model because it used official gunmetal parts.

[The_Hollowest_Knight]

You have to paint and 3D print parts anyway, even if the Inika thighs were used

[toaskello]

This is much less impactful than recoloring the whole thing blue, which is also allowed. The shield and mask would have to be painted anyway.

[Racie02]

@The_Hollowest_Knight

Is it really that obvious if you had to zoom in on a tiny gap in the shield for you to notice it?

@TheJerminator

so obvious in the original entry

The original entry had multiple photos, showing the leg armour. That’s what TJ was getting at.

@TheJerminator

Anyone who voted for that model because it used official gunmetal parts.

The art can also recolor the model to a dozen other mettalic colours that none of the parts come in.

[Lamentte]

@TheJerminator

If all it takes for a change to be allowed is for the original creator to say it’s okay, then entrants could effectively enter multiple entries by saying “I’m okay with the entire appearance being changed to match this other design if I win”.

You keep using these slippery slope fallacies, when there’s nothing to suggest that any of them would be allowed, which you even stated yourself later in this post.

@TheJerminator

Yes, that’s an extreme example that TTV would never allow, but that’s my point: it’s TTV, not the creators, that ultimately decides whether or not a change is okay, and I’m questioning whether they were fully informed when making this specific decision.

I’m making an educated assumption TTV has seen other photos of it, if that’s what you mean by “fully informed”.

@TheJerminator

Anyone who voted for that model because it used official gunmetal parts.

The model has two other pieces that are not officially available in gunmetal, one of which is a 3d printed mask. It’s not gonna be purist either way. It’ll be even less purist if the spear tip changes to something else that’s not in gunmetal, which seems to be what a couple of people are doing.

[TheJerminator]

@The_Hollowest_Knight

You have to paint and 3D print parts anyway

@toaskello

The shield and mask would have to be painted anyway.

@Lamentte

It’s not gonna be purist either way.

@TheJerminator

It’s not just about the hassle for some people; it’s also about not damaging official (and possibly retired) parts. 3d printing might be more of a hassle, but it doesn’t damage official parts.

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@toaskello

This is much less impactful than recoloring the whole thing blue

@Racie02

The art can also recolor the model to a dozen other mettalic colours

Yeah, massive non-purism could still be a final result. I’m not going to pretend that mandating the Inika thighs would guarantee a purist model. But given how often people cited purism as a reason for voting for an entry, it seems odd to allow the change of something that might have been a key issue for many people, regardless of why it’s allowed.

And that also ties into this:

@Lamentte

It’ll be even less purist if the spear tip changes

The possibility of changing spears (and colours, for that matter) was something that was known going into the voting period, and voters were able to factor the possibility of change into their votes.

The possibility of changing thighs was not something that was known at the start of the voting process; if it was known that the thighs could be changed, the winning model might have gotten more votes from people who had been turned off by the unique thighs. Or, more importantly, it might have lost votes from the people who wanted a maximum-purism gunmetal Hagah.

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@Lamentte

You keep using these slippery slope fallacies, when there’s nothing to suggest that any of them would be allowed, which you even stated yourself later in this post.

Again, I wasn’t trying to literally suggest that that would ever actually happen. That was in response to the people claiming that the changes are okay just because the creator said they were; that ridiculous example shows why the creators can’t be the sole arbiters of what’s okay to change, and why TTVs involvement in the changes being allowed is still important.

@Lamentte

if that’s what you mean by “fully informed”.

I mean “aware that Pouks’s thigh armour can be seen in the entry photo”.

[Winger]

@TheJerminator

But given how often people cited purism as a reason for voting for an entry

Then it’s prolly reasonable to assume those people didn’t vote for that Pouks.

[Racie02]

@TheJerminator

might have lost votes from the people who wanted a maximum-purism gunmetal Hagah.

People who were well aware that Pouks could be recolored to blue, or pink, or black, or gold, or green…

Yeah, it was cool that it was purist aside from the mask and shield. But everyone who voted for it already knew it never guaranteed purism of the canon appearance.

[SirKeksalot]

@TheJerminator

The breakdowns and alternate angles don’t matter. That’s the whole reason that the thighs were allowed to be changed in the first place

Actually I’m pretty sure it’s because the convo started, Kodi said it was ok, and TTV saw no reason to disallow it. Voot’s point is that TTV has to have seen the breakdown photos, else they wouldn’t know what the thigh was at all. Kodi’s consent is the key to what’s happening here, and really the only thing that matters.

@TheJerminator

The thing is, the thighs literally do not play by the same rules as masks and spear tips. Masks and spears were given special exemption in the official contest rules. Thighs were not.

These thighs have been given that exemption now. Rules were added going into a new phase of the contest. It ain’t that deep.

@TheJerminator

If all it takes for a change to be allowed is for the original creator to say it’s okay, then entrants could effectively enter multiple entries by saying “I’m okay with the entire appearance being changed to match this other design if I win”.

Uh…no??? That doesn’t make sense. You’re slipping down the slipperiest of slopes. By your own admission, it will never happen, so your point is moot.

@TheJerminator

Yes, that’s an extreme example that TTV would never allow, but that’s my point: it’s TTV, not the creators, that ultimately decides whether or not a change is okay

And they decided it was ok based on what the creator said.

@TheJerminator

and I’m questioning whether they were fully informed when making this specific decision.

There is no reason whatsoever to think they weren’t. The fact that they made this rule and acknowledged the discussion surrounding Pouks’s thighs indicates that they were informed.

[Lamentte]

@TheJerminator

It’s not just about the hassle for some people; it’s also about not damaging official (and possibly retired) parts. 3d printing might be more of a hassle, but it doesn’t damage official parts.

Paint can be removed in most cases. That’s why painting pieces is allowed and removing prints is not. Also, there are metru thigh pieces available literally for FREE on bricklink right now.

@TheJerminator

The possibility of changing thighs was not something that was known at the start of the voting process; if it was known that the thighs could be changed, the winning model might have gotten more votes from people who had been turned off by the unique thighs. Or, more importantly, it might have lost votes from the people who wanted a maximum-purism gunmetal Hagah.

I think you are realllly overestimating how much the average person cared about thigh pieces.

@TheJerminator

Again, I wasn’t trying to literally suggest that that would ever actually happen. That was in response to the people claiming that the changes are okay just because the creator said they were; that ridiculous example shows why the creators can’t be the sole arbiters of what’s okay to change, and why TTVs involvement in the changes being allowed is still important.

Nobody is saying that creators should have full say, they bring up kodiak’s approval because it supports TTV’s approval. Also, you are still constructing an extreme scenario that nobody is arguing for to be possible here, not even the people you are trying to disprove. Still a slippery slope fallacy in that regard.

@TheJerminator

I mean “aware that Pouks’s thigh armour can be seen in the entry photo”

Okay, even if they didn’t notice, it’s because it’s only really seeable at all if you zoom into the build in order to make out anything that could be seen as parts of an inika thigh.

Once again, this really isn’t as big of a deal as you’re making it out to be.

[Stuubh]

@Stuubh

On the topic of changing things, would it be okay to change Pouks’ thigh armor? He’s the only member of the team without Metru thighs.

I think it’s worth mentioning that when I asked Eljay about this, my reason for requesting this change was uniformity. While Eljay’s response was more about the obscured thighs in the entry photo, I believe uniformity was another reason for its allowance. But it was allowed. It’s silly to bring this up so late in the game when it’s already been approved. 5 of the 6 art entries so far use Metru thighs for Pouks. Would it really be fair to those artists to suddenly disallow this change? TTV wouldn’t go back on this decision anyway.

[Willess12]

@TheJerminator
Let’s look at what Eljay said in full.

@Eljay

@Stuubh

On the topic of changing things, would it be okay to change Pouks’ thigh armor? He’s the only member of the team without Metru thighs.

As things stands, we do have this rule for art:

@Eljay

4e. Artwork cannot significantly modify the aesthetics of the original MOC, either by omission or addition, and must follow the color scheme of the original MOC as closely as possible. For example, additional limbs or significant color shifts would not be allowed.

However, it is worth noting that in this case, the entry photo notably obscures the thigh armor entirely. So in this instance, we’re of the opinion that some artistic freedom in this department is allowable. That said, it would be weighed with other changes that may skirt the rule, if any exist. So discretion will be applied.

Emphasis mine.
Now, some minor changes have been allowed since the first contest. Surprisingly, no one has brought up that this:

@TheJerminator

you wouldn’t want an artist to give Pouks a bright green left hand

Literally happened in the first contest, with Helryx’s hand changing from black to blue.

" the entry photo notably obscures the thigh armor entirely."

so this statement isn’t 100% true. What is true, however, is the spirit of what Eljay intended by this – that you can get away with changing the leg armor. And other minor changes: an entry has changed the hand colors, another changed the color of Bomonga’s limbs, one changed Bomonga’s shoulder armor and slightly altered the mask. The only change requested to be removed so far was eye color, meaning that eye color is considered a “significant change”.

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@SirKeksalot

Actually I’m pretty sure it’s because the convo started, Kodi said it was ok, and TTV saw no reason to disallow it.

No, Eljay said “that’s fine to change” before Kodiak said anything on the matter.

Doesn’t really impact anything, just thought I’d point that out.

[ToaArcan]

This is the most absurd argument in the entire contest saga, and I say that as someone who went into this one with the mentality of “I want all of them to look like they came out of cans in 2005” and still ended up giving at least one vote to most of the winners during the process.

I’m still gonna stick my oar in, though, because I’m an idiot: It’s entirely possible that they just didn’t see the breakdown photos for Pouks because like half the entries don’t have the usual check/approval post from a TTV member on them, and they straight-up admitted that they didn’t check Bomonga.

Either way Eljay and Kodiak have both said that artists have the green light to change it if they want to, and that’s legitimately all that counts. Splitting hairs over whether the armour pieces are visible is by now entirely pointless.

If an artist changes the design and wins, the change wins. If an artist doesn’t change the design and wins, the change doesn’t win. That’s it.

[Winger]

@ToaArcan

This is the most absurd argument in the entire contest saga

now wait just one minute

We can’t just go around giving out that title willy nilly. Such a christening requires careful deliberation and extensive research.

[Atobe_Brick]

@BionicMamba97

What are your thoughts about the knights kingdom spiked ball being Pouks spear tip?

Would a weapon like that be allowed?

[Huemus]

It wouldn’t be a spear, so it shouldn’t be allowed

[Sharnak]

The only way I can see that working is if you use it as inspiration for a new piece, be it 3D-printed or drawn. Flatten it out, make more pointy, and you have a new, spiked spearhead.

[Rukah]

that’s a mace, not a spear

[BionicMamba97]

The inspiration came from the spiked armor shoulders. I get where your coming from in terms of having no ball shaped tip on the weapon; it wouldn’t make it a spear, rather a mace with looong handle. Your idea is better than my initial thought!

Thanks for sharing this!

[Huemus]

I know many entries will be last minute, but so far we only have 6 entries (none confirmed) for the art contest, meanwhile Helryx and Arthaka had over 40 and 30 entries each.

How about we allow to each member to participate with more than one entry (2 or 3), but just recoloring the armor? That way we increase the number of entries and there is more room to vote for what each consider the best representation of the Hagah.