Bionicle Elements Discussion

LEGO BIONICLE
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I once made a BZP topic with the only sound explanation I could drum up, but in hindsight, it’s not really very sound when you realize how contrived it is. You shouldn’t need to bring in even introductory geology to explain your magic system unless it’s explicitly based on geology. I tried writing fanfiction where I applied this rule, and I had to specify in the middle of an action scene that the rocks in a given spot were sandstone, so Onua couldn’t move them. It was super awkward to have to just bring up geology in the middle of a scene that shoulda been about fighting Bohrok.

Try as I might, I fimrly believe that you literally cannot come up with a sound distinction between the two elements. Greg’s defined it as the difference between getting hit in the face with a rock and a lump of dirt; but Onu-Koro is situated in a cave system, which is made of rock…which Onua brings down on the Rahkshi, and which he tunnels through all the time. It’s like the difference between the two elements is WHERE the material is, not WHAT it is–a rule literally none of the others follow. I’m all for giving Stone the boot for G3 and replacing it with, idk, Kinesis so Pohatu can still kick rocks around. The whole elemental roster needs reworking anyway.

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88

Then by this logic, water and ice should be separate elements.

You know what’s weird? Earth and Stone are kind of ingrained in my mind as two separate elements. Maybe because when I was a kid, I just sort of shrugged off the confusion and just went with it. Or maybe because, like you said, there are technicalities.

Also, Kinesis as an element? Granted, it’s not much weirder than, say, electricity or magnetism, but still. Having it alongside earth, fire, water, air, and ice…I don’t know how I feel about that…

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https://web.archive.org/web/20101223201235/https://aethion.webs.com/apps/wiki/elements

You can check this list of elements from Swerts Expanded Multiverse project for other element ideas. (And yes, kinesis is on there.)

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Earth is the soil, clay, mud and terrain, while Stone is rock, boulders, mountains, and sand.
One is hard, one is not.

[quote=“thewimpykid, post:5, topic:51496, full:true”]Then by this logic, water and ice should be separate elements.
[/quote]

They are.

EDITED FOR DOUBLE POSTING - Spiderus Prime

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If electromagnetic radiation (Light) and bleedin’ heat (Fire) get respective elements, so can mechanical energy. It’d have a lot of practical applications in and out of combat.

Uh…they are.

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92

When considering the rationale behind this, I personally find it helpful to look behind the scenes. As expanded upon by Maku in this lovingly crafted google doc: Original Bionicle Ideas, Revised and Expanded Edition - Google Docs

When Alastair Swinnerton, one of the brilliant co-creators of the franchise, and seemingly the foundation for many of the ideas that made Bionicle what it is, was originally envisioning the Toa, it was a simple four classical western elements: fire, water, earth, air. However, he was then informed that Lego had six product lines, so he would need six elements! Which necessitated new elements.

I imagine in the interests of not straying too far from the original intentions of his idea, the seemingly out-of-place elements of ice and stone were born. Which, despite all the headaches it creates, was probably for the best. Imagining the Toa Mata without Kopaka and Pohatu is like imagining the original trilogy cast without Han and Chewie.

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93

Oh, heck yes. They were so integral, you just can’t get rid of them. Still…

Then in this case, they could’ve just…you know, actually made Voriki canon.

You know, I recall one episode of Ninjago Season 11 where Nya was having a discussion about how ice is technically water, so she might be able to control it. Granted, I don’t remember if she actually did try to control the element of ice, but still. It’s something to think about.

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That’s also Ninjago and not Bionicle. Bionicle functions on different scientific rules in its own world, so what one world or product line says is not necessarily the same as the other.

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Uh…no. The laws of science and physics apply to the entire universe.

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That’s not what he means. One franchise’s magic system doesn’t decide the rules for another’s. In Avatar, “Water” denotes water in all of its states of matter; in Bionicle, it obviously doesn’t. They’re chemically the same no matter what, yes–but that’s not what magic systems are all about unless that’s the idea they’re founded upon.

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97

And yet Ninjago lists ice and water as separate elements.

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Right, but Flux was saying that Nya suggested that there could be overlap, which…kinda defeats the point of elements in the first place…but I was mostly responding to this:

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What I’m referring to is the fact that several things in Bionicle contradict realworld science, and when Greg was asked about it, he said that the Bionicle World does not follow real world science. That’s why we have literal fire being frozen in the comics, when that’s physically impossible. Ninjago is a separate Lego entity, it does not share the same world as Bionicle, therefore it does not follow the same rules or laws of science.

They may have similar rules with them having elements, but in application the usage of the elements are different.

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100

So the answer to my question boils down to “in the Bionicle universe, earth and stone are different elements.” Eh, whatever.

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Looks like it’s old, tired question again. Well, it’s been asked a million times, so here we go:[quote=“thewimpykid, post:1, topic:51496”]
Ever since I first discovered Bionicle, I’ve been wondering what the difference is between the Earth and Stone elemental powers. Aren’t those basically the same thing?
[/quote]

Here is quite possibly the simplest explanation which I blatantly stole:

image.png800×535 611 KB

Earth.
No consistent form, easily malleable, you can plant in it, the ground is made of it, add water and it becomes mud.

image.jpg1600×1067 1.05 MB

Stone.
Whatever form it takes is its form, isn’t malleable unless extremely hot, supports no plant life whatsoever, often found in massive solid chunks, add water and nothing happens.

These are not the same. Grind stones to powder and you get sand, which no Stone Toa has even actually controlled likely due to how small each individual particle is. And there’s the real difference between the two elements; Earth isn’t simply trillions of stones but super tiny, it exists as a substance. Like how air isn’t really air, it’s a combination of gases. But nobody questions air, or if there’s a gas Lewa can’t control, it’s always the same, boring, repetitive topic of how Earth and Stone must be the same thing.

Nobody questions if Gali can control air since it’s the same elements, or if Tahu could control magma since it’s comparable to fire. It’s always Earth vs Stone, a topic which has gone on for over a decade and a half.

You’re welcome to be dissatisfied if you want, but be aware the only people willing to argue with you are the ones who didn’t get burned out by the debate years ago.

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I’ve seen people on these very boards discuss this idea.

I would just like to point out that probably part of the reason for this is that they don’t make the distinction in the same way Earth and Stone do. Lewa is not the Toa of Oxygen, and Gali is not the Toa of Morning Dew (and yes, while Ice is a form of Water, it’s distinct enough as to the point where you can reliably find it in certain environments - Water in lakes, ponds, rivers, oceans, and Ice in mountaintops and anywhere cold, and the ability to create it through simply freezing is far more clear-cut than the distinction between Stone and Earth).

I don’t think anybody is denying that Stone and Earth are separate things. The problem people have is that Earth and Stone are found in the exact same place, ie, below our feet, underground, in mountains, etc. so making such a distinction between them calls into question the existence of either of them when they draw power from the same general place, while other elements as you quite rightly pointed out seem incredibly vague and loose in what they control, and in some cases the Earth/Stone distinction seems to contradict itself: for example Onu-Koro being in great caverns underground full of STONE that they have to mine, drill and tunnel through to find protodermis and light(stones). Because deliberately limiting a Toa of Earth and Stone to those very specific substances would be extremely annoying and get in the way of writing scenes by stopping to go “hey, wait, is there any dirt around here or is Onua powerless?”, in canon they essentially end up controlling the same stuff, and then people wonder why they’re considered different things in the first place.

I won’t deny that it’s a tired argument, one that I’m sick of, but acting like there isn’t a solid rationale for it is ridiculous. I’ve just learned to accept that it is what it is: a kind of stupid product of a miscommunication and subsequent quick patch which adds an odd little quirk to this universe we all love. A thing you like can be flawed, you don’t have to fight for all of it tooth and nail.

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103

From the way Lewa’s “air” powers are used, it seems that he doesn’t so much control a gas, more like wind. Wind is defined as a change in air pressure-something that is not directly an element. Then again, so is fire and electricity…

First off, there are times where Gali (and other Toa of Water, for that matter) simply conjure water out of thin air. What’s to say they aren’t drawing on water vapor for such feats?

Second off, I kinda like the idea of a Toa of Magma. Maybe that should be an Element…

Yeah, pretty much this. The way Ghid explained it seemed a little more distinct, but then you run into the problem of finding “stone” underground.

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This explanation falls flat when we examine some of what Onua does. Firstly, he tunnels through the ground around Onu-Koro, which means tunneling through rock. It’s unlikely that, even with the Pakari, he’d be able to burrow through solid rock as easily as he does.

Second, in “Divided We Fall,” the Toa Nuva spar with one another, and Onua creates a ramp to send Pohatu flying. If it were sediment of any kind, Pohatu would hurdle through it, but his speed sends him up the ramp as though it were something solid and sturdy. The amount of concentration and effort it’d probably take to use dirt in this way and to have it work without Pohatu just sinking into the mound is probably far beyond the mental capacity of any Toa.

I would accept “dirt” and “rock” elements being distinct from a chemical perspective, though I still have issues with a “dirt” element from a combat/practicality perspective. The problem is that Bionicle doesn’t seem to adhere to this rule.

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105

Not necessarily. Such an action would actually depend on Pohatu’s velocity, and how thick the mound of sediment actually was. Since Pohatu uses the Mask of Speed, we can assume he runs much faster than a normal Toa would. And based on the comic’s panels, it seems that, as Pohatu was running, Onua took control of the ground and caused it to rise into a ramp while Pohatu was still running. Admittedly, I’m not a physicist. But from what I’ve learned in my years of school, what we see in the comic is theoretically possible.

(I assume you’re referring to Page 5 of this comic: http://biomediaproject.com/bmp/files/gfx/Comics/Mata%20Nui%20Saga/Comic09/pdf_comic_09.pdf )

Again, there are quite a few factors in this. How strong are the claws he uses? How strong is the rock he’s digging through? How much does the Pakari amplify his strength?

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He’s the Toa of Earth. That means knowing when there’s a gigantic rock in your way before you get to it.

Is it directly stated that he can do this? No, but it wasn’t directly stated he could make mud explode. Until he did, in '08.[quote=“SirKeksalot, post:22, topic:51496”]
Second, in “Divided We Fall,” the Toa Nuva spar with one another, and Onua creates a ramp to send Pohatu flying. If it were sediment of any kind, Pohatu would hurdle through it, but his speed sends him up the ramp as though it were something solid and sturdy.
[/quote]

Two things to consider.

One, the sediment is as compacted or as loose as Onua wants it to be. Sure, he could make it normal soil and Pohatu could blast into it for funsies. But he’s the Toa of Earth. He doesn’t just move earth, he controls it. Commands it. Just like how Helryx was able to weaponize water and threaten Takanuva (also '08) Onua gets to tell his element what to do.

Two, the comics are cool as canon, but we can’t take the visual depiction of things as canon. Otherwise Kopaka’s head is incredibly tiny, Onua has dwarfism, and Lewa has eyes in the top of his head.

And finally, if you do consider the visual depictions as canon, you can see roots trapped with the mystery material Onua is commanding - roots wouldn’t be trapped in stone.

The mystery material also matches the depiction of the ground Onua is standing on. Unless he’s standing on a massive chunk of rock buried in the ground, I’d say it’s dirt.

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