I see. My quote and comment still stand, in that case.
1 Like
Norik and Iruini themselves have the same build and function, and yet, people still want to own both. I do intend on them having subtle differences as well, but I don’t think they need to be CRAZY or have more articulation points.
1 Like
As I’ve mentioned, while they are decent sets I think there are clear areas of improvement, and it would be a shame not to take advantage of this contest to address some of those shortcomings while sticking to the same general aesthetic they laid out.
1 Like
I get why you think that, but to me, it just sounds when people say that, that they want to inject this
Into this
And to me that just seems very off
2 Likes
IF every single entry had an identical build to Norik and Iruini (at least in terms of torso and articulation), you could still vote on metallic armour (colour, placement, and shape), Kanohi shape, and spearhead. Granted, that still isn’t much, but it’s something.
For all this discussion, I feel like there will still be enough variety in the entries that everyone will have something to vote for.
If you want the Hagah to have the same basic build as Norik and Iruini, with little to no custom construction, there will be plenty of options for that. I don’t think it is necessary or fair to mandate that. (I am talking about limbs here too, not just torso. I am on the fence about mandating the torso piece, but I am firmly against mandating that the limb structure be the same as well, especially if the torso piece ends up being mandatory.)
3 Likes
Right. I’ve been watching this discussion go down and frankly, I’m genuinely surprised with just how wack some of these takes - and how poor some of these arguments are. I’m sure when it comes time there’ll be no restriction on the torso construction anyway and people will be allowed to use whatever amalgamation of parts that they want to, but that goes against the point of calling this a “canon” contest, rather than just some custom build, or revamp contest if you ask me.
The idea is to get the canon depiction of these characters, and I’d personally consider actively going against what canon details we already have for these characters for the sake of being ‘creative’ to be in bad faith.
The remaining Toa Hagah are of a Metru build, like Toa Norik and Toa Iruni, and Greg has clarified this; specifically talking about their body. - Pretty cut and dry.
Norik and Iruni have different armour to the Toa Metru and Lhikan sets, as well as different armour to each other. This is also the case for their lower limbs. As far as identifying what exactly makes a “Metru build”, I’d say it’s a good place to start with the similarities between all the sets that are considered one, but I think you could safely boil it down to just the torso piece, and roughly similar scale/proportions.
If I were to propose a rule for the Hagah contests, it would be:
“Your build must use 1 (no more, no less) Metru torso gearbox piece (part: 47395) in the torso’s construction, and scale with the existing Toa Hagah canister sets.
(basically don’t build a titan and just hide the torso piece inside)”
IMO, that should balance having a restriction to ensure the winning entry is canon-compliant (as a canon model should be) - with all the room for creative freedom everywhere else, within reason.
I mean, have you seen what people are able to do around a Metru build anyway?
What the people advocating for “muh creativity” need to understand is this is a Hagah contest. We already have 2/6 of them, and we know the rest should have the same body build, and look pretty similar. The end result should be a whole team that fits next to the official sets, not have any that stick out like a sore thumb literally just for the sake of it.
None of the custom torsos I’ve seen here even do anything that the Metru torso doesn’t already accomplish - actually, most of them are inferior as they can’t accommodate a working gearbox.
But beyond that, what is the point of a custom torso completely replicating the original?
The argument that it doesn’t matter so long as the art portion (if we even have a separate art portion for this contest…) changes the appearance to use a Metru torso piece is redundant - if it’s going to look like it should in the end anyway, there’s no reason for it to look different at any point in between, and potentially have the “canon model” be non-canon from the moment it was entered. It’s also a ridiculous double standard to enforce such a restriction on the artists, but not on the builders.
12 Likes
So, to recap, here is the ruleset I’m pushing for.
- Moc contests for each Toa individually
- Custom torsos are allowed. If one wins, it canonically becomes a variation of the mettur build. If you don’t like custom torsos, don’t vote for them.
- 3d weapons and masks are allowed.
- Placeholder shield, or no shield, is allowed; art must draw the rhotuka launching shield, however.
- Art contest for all four together (norik and iruini optional but encouraged)
- Art CANNOT alter the mask shape of the winning mocs, but is allowed to alter mettalic colours.
- Art can recolour the mask to match the metallic armour, but not to another colour (for example, if the winning gaaki moc has a Metru blue mask, you can recolour it to silver, but if it already has a silver mask, you can’t recolour it blue)
- Art cannot recolour non-mettalic parts to be mettalic, or vice versa. So, if the winning gaaki moc has blue shoulder pads, you cannot recolour them silver. The only exception is the mask, which can be recoloured to mettalic.
I think that this is the most balanced ruleset, accommodating for everything: custom torsos, mettalic colour balance, 3d parts, and making something for both moc and art to contribute.
6 Likes
Everyone agrees that the Hagah are Metru builds. That is not up for debate. What is up for debate, as you pointed out is the definition of a Metru build, and there is no Greg quote for that.
That purple one with the inverted torso makes a great case for the torso being mandatory: if we just tried to define a Metru build off of proportions alone, this purple one would actually get disqualified, despite the fact that we can probably all agree it should be considered a Metru build. I think the solution is to mandate the torso, but then open up the restrictions on proportions a little.
I fully support every single one of those rules, except for 2: the one about custom torsos, which I am indifferent towards, and the one about changing the metallic colour itself, which I actively oppose. You’d be modifying the MOCs to achieve a goal that isn’t even canon.
And besides, there’s no guarantee that this rule would even do what you want it to. What if I decided to try my hand at art and make all of them pink?
(I really, really like the idea of changing the mask colour though, since it opens up mask opportunities while not requiring painted parts.)
7 Likes
Big agree, same applies to nidhiki’s volitak needing to be green which I’ve mentioned as well.
4 Likes
Then those like me who want balance can choose not to vote for it, and those who don’t care can vote for it if they want pink Toa and like your art.
It’s not that complicated. It gives a chance of balance, not a guarantee. Because otherwise, general rule of random chance basically guarantees they will be unbalanced.
1 Like
I guess so. I still don’t really like the idea, but I could always just vote for ones that don’t change the colours.
1 Like
You mean his Kualsi-shaped Volitak? 
1 Like
To add to this, one could argue that the Mata had the same build, but allowed for variety such as making Onua a hunchback and reversing Pohatu’s torso. The Metru build sets we got were mostly clones of one another, but I don’t see why the Hagah can’t have their own spins on the build as well.
Whether or not custom torsos should be allowed or not, I don’t have a strong horse in the race, really. As I’ve said before, entries that don’t fit the metru aesthetic won’t get that far, custom torso or not. We keep arguing over semantics, as far as I’m concerned, with no end in sight. I’m glad in some ways people are passionate about it, but given the likely end results, points like “what if someone makes a mostly ccbs entry” are fairly moot.
8 Likes
You probably think they’re bad because you misunderstand them, and I’ll explain why that’s the case.
I 100% agree with this. That’s why I said:
Which would not only be the torso piece, but also the working gear function and no ball joint shoulders. From the responses in this topic, I doubt people would be in favor of enforcing those though, only the torso piece, which is not consistent reasoning.
And yet most if not all of those builds, while still using the Metru torso, look radically different. Especially that Lhikan, which has fingers. I don’t want to be nicky picky, but I’m not the one advocating entires must use a specific piece to enter, so I don’t have to be.
That’s the point, creating a custom build that matches the Metru torso for those who want to.
Further showing you did not read or understand my post, where I specifically answered this question. If you don’t like my answer, fine, but don’t act like I didn’t.
It would allow the most creativity and participation. Yes, these are canon contests, and canon can’t be thrown out for the sake of creativity, but at the same time, if there’s no opportunity for creativity (which would happen if little to no modifications to the entire Metru build were allowed, which you would be arguing for if you were consistent), then no one would bother entering.
At this point, I think the best option would be either to only have an art contest, which would negate this entire argument, or no contest at all, given how much controversy and headache the whole process has been.
1 Like
I think the responses have shown you, that is a very untrue statement.
6 Likes
Pretty much every modified Metru build still goes farther that I personally would allow (if there were no art contest). Ball joint shoulders, lower leg armor, etc.
So if you define a Metru build by the similarities shared by the Toa Metru and Hagah, as iBunny suggested, then even these slight modifications should not be allowed.
Under those stipulations, yes, I do think no one would care enough to enter, cause it would just be a reskin contest, not a MOC contest, at least not to the point that the last two have been.
1 Like
Honestly I’d be fine with mandating the shoulders match the sets. From a moc standpoint I prefer the shoulder mod we all pretty well use, but canonically speaking I think it would be perfectly reasonable to mandate normal shoulders that match Norik & Iruini.
We can always mod the winning moc to have better shoulders after the fact, like plenty of us already do with Norik, Iruini, Lhikan, etc.
3 Likes
I propose one simple rule for the MOC contest of the Hagah:
- Make it look like it came out of a canister. Please. I’m begging you, it’s not that hard.
11 Likes
Absolutely agree.
1 Like
Here I think I may have found part of what troubles you, and possibly others. I think theres two mindsets for people in these forums. Some people hear Canon Moc Contest and focus on Canon and some focus on Moc as in they want it to be the most elaborate and creative thing possible rather than something that falls in line with canon. I know you’ve said you don’t care either way, but you seem perturbed by the possibility of a ‘reskin’ contest, even saying noone would want to partake (really just people with your shared mentality) which is in actuality probably less than half of the people on the forums. If they look similar to original sets or ‘reskins’ as you’d say, I am unbothered. They’d appear closely to canon characters we already have established and I am okay with this. I don’t need it to be elaborate or super ‘creative’ by your standards. I want an appearance for the character that’s feel genuine in the mediums we already have present for their established counterparts.
4 Likes