I don’t really agree that you should have this mindset in regards to the canon contest if that is not what you are arguing then ignore this.
As a mindset for making your own headcanons I can understand your reasoning and agree with your sentiment. You can make an toa metru 80s rock Krahka moc like this one:
So you’re saying that headcanons being wrong is only a problem because canon hasn’t changed in 10 years? I suppose that makes sense.
But then, if headcanons are suddenly more sacred since it’s been ten years since any new content, haven’t the headcanon-havers already relaxed their dedication to following canon? Why do they care if there’s new content?
This just brings us to a slightly modified version of my issue with this argument: If someone’s moved on from the official canon and started creating their own version, then why do they care if the original comes back? Or, if they care enough about the original canon after ten years that they feel the need to follow it exactly, why would they still hold on to their own opinion-based version?
Yes.
I like the story.
Plus, I’m sure that we can all agree that the most basic concept behind Bionicle is awesome: Biomechanical warriors with Elemental powers fighting other biomechanical warriors. That would be awesome to watch and/or visualize, but visualization is a little tricky when you don’t know what the characters look like.
This post just made me even more excited for these contests than I already was.
I know Gilahu personally. He does. He cares about being compliant with canon. For me and him, that’s the whole reason we make MOCs.
Saying “I want to do x” doesn’t make something canon-compliant. You have to abide by the rules that canon sets if that’s the ballpark you’re playing in (which Gilahu and I are).
It’s both.
I agree with you here.
The Matoran lived a prosperous life without that information. The analogy still applies here.
For the purposes of what this was analogising, I also agree with you. I just come down on the side of preferring to not have that information and being freer to pursue my own interpretation.
Canon stops one channel of this and opens up another. Whether it’s a net benefit or not comes down to personal perspective.
On the whole I think you’re raising very good points. But you’re completely dismissing the other side of the argument.
Yes, but then it’s not canon-compliant, which is the whole point.
Anyone who does this with their MOCs on a normal basis is - and I’ll be frank here - not the target group of these contests and has no business with them.
This is admittedly a somewhat reasonable argument, but I still see it as inferior to complete freedom not tied to a canon design. With the exception of Marendar, we know enough about every contest character to make them recognizible without a canon design. There are more than likely several really good MOCs for every contest character to be found somewhere, and regardless of whether the contests define a canon design or not, there’d be more in the future.
The only thing the canon contest obviously contribute is a wave of new MOCs to choose from. But you could get that from a canon-compliant contest as well. Which I’d even be a fan of.
I just disagree with being dictated canon I don’t like as someone who’s working a lot on expanding canon with canon compliant headcanon.
You’re really going to insult all the people who moc for fun more than making every single moc or creation exactly perfect with the Bionicle canon and never having any deviation whatsoever? All the inventive builders who enter the contests to flex their building prowess and provide the best possible model - you’re going to tell them they don’t belong?
You’re really going to do that?
Really?
Exactly.
To be technical, they were never not following canon. The gist of the argument is that (I assume) many people who have headcanons treat them almost as sacred as the true canon. They’re still following canon, but with a cherry on top.
And people don’t like their cherries being stolen.
I have another analogy: what would you think if Bethesda canonised the Dragonborn as being a Nord, when you built a whole backstory for your Argonian Dragonborn? Bethesda deliberately doesn’t canonise the race or gender of the protagonists in Elder Scrolls games precisely because of that.
maybe the worst thing that comes out of these contests is all the arguing
This is a joke, I do not mean to insult anyone.
no this is true
No, I’m saying they’re not the target group of a canon contest, because obviously they would not care that much about what is and isn’t canon.
You do not invite people from the next municipality over to vote on local municipal matters - because these don’t really affect them, so what can they be expected to make a well-founded vote for?
It’s not their fault, but it is simply the truth here.
That happened to me once
Be careful, Gil. I know what you mean but it sounds like something worse.
If I’m right, you’re basically saying if someone is voting for an entry because it looks cool with no consideration of whether it fits the character, that’s a problem. Which I agree with. But I assume (or at least sincerely hope) most people aren’t doing that.
Um…
Wrong.
So wrong.
I care.
It’s why I’m bothering to argue. Because I care about the canon contests. And 90% of my MOCs are specifically not canon-compliant and intentionally so. I like to build.
Right. Sure.
You just lost a lot of ground. I’m in the same Bionicle community as you and I care just as much about the canon - but I’m not telling you to pack up and leave because you have ‘no business with these contests’ just because you have a headcanon.
Come on, dude.
I’m not advocating to, and I’m not even sure what you’re arguing.
You want to be compliant with a strict set of rules, but don’t want to be restricted by those rules…seems counterintuitive, and frankly you’d be better off making your own canon to do what you want, which a lot of us already do because it’s fun.
I’m saying you don’t have to.
It’s only the former. This is Lego, ■■■■ it. The whole point is to make ■■■■ up and do what you like.
They can still do so, but ignorance is anything but a virtue.
Because it’s contrived. It’s a cage you built for yourself.
Have you not considered that maybe we want these contests for multiple reasons or–heaven forbid–do multiple different things with our MOCs? Canon-compliancy can be fun. So can non-compliancy. Why do we have to choose a side? I ignore canon 99% of the time because I don’t like it, but I still want these contests. Who are you to say they’re not for me? You complain about other people forcing canon upon you, and then you complain that a lot of us have no right to participate?
So do I. I hate genderlocked elements and most of the story beats and pretty much all of the villains in Bionicle except for a few. Canon is a hot mess and it’s already really specific and restrictive. I’ve made one canon-compliant MOC in my entire adult life, and it was just for a collab, and you know what? The restrictions bred creativity. I found something because I had a lack of freedom.
Canon is not oppression. Even if I concede that the inability to do whatever you want is a con to these contests, it is far outweighed by the fact that rules breed challenges.
This but unironically. It’s been fun otherwise.
I think that, currently, one of the best arguments against the contests are still fan projects like Red Star Games (RSG) and other 3D modelers. I bet @Gilahu and others who are actually involved with RSG can speak more on this than I can, but these contests directly affect not only what they consider canon, but their actual monetary profit. MOCs of characters aren’t that big of an issue, since, as others have said, revamps have been done all the time. However, RSG has created and sells masks that we haven’t seen before in canon, and they try their hardest to remain canon compliant. So far, it hasn’t caused much trouble, as they hadn’t modelled a Mask of Creation at the time of Artakha’s contest, and while they do have a Mask of Psychometry, it wasn’t branded as Helryx’s specifically, and so they can continue to use it for other characters. However, if/when we get to the Mangai (Nidhiki, Tuyet, and perhaps others if the community so decides), it will directly interfere with RSG’s ‘Vangaurd’ line of masks, which are specifically for the Mangai.
RSG can technically opt to allow them to be used in the contests, but this would force them to provide the models for free, and thus lose any profit they might’ve received otherwise. And if they choose not to, then by default the masks that become canon for the Mangai cannot be RSG’s, and thus it could increase disinterest with their masks, which would also cost them money.
Regardless of your views on them, fan initiatives like RSG are a big part of what has been keeping Bionicle alive all these years. They don’t get paid much from their models, and deserve more, not less. They have to pay their artists and modelers, so if RSG loses money from these contests, RSG can’t pay them, and most likely will become less active because of it. In the short term, sure, it may seem like these contests are a good way of getting the community as a whole active and participating in the franchise again, but in the long term, I think it could be really detrimental.
Ok, ok, let me rephrase this somewhat, I of course jumped ahead a bit too much, leaving out something important:
It’s of course always a combination of MOC and lore. And of course saying “this is not canon compatible but I like it” is valid.
However, there is undeniably a certain faction that actively deviates from canon for various reasons such like dislike of certain aspects or strong headcanons they want to realize. Which is all fine in itself.
But to me there is a fundamental difference between earnestly saying “This is character X as depicted in canon, but I actively choose to make character X look very different in core aspects with my MOC of them” and “This is character X in canon, but I don’t care about that - this is them now as my MOC, doesn’t matter if it’s fundamentally different”
This second one communicates to me a general disregard of canon, and as such I see people who act like it as perfectly suited for all things they want to do, but unsuited for judging what should be canon, as they place an entirely different value on it and have an entirely different connection to it.
Just like in any other field.
I’m the first to admit that I’m probably not suited to make a well-founded vote when the next elections for the mayor of my hometown take place. Simply because I don’t care on that level.
We do not. But the canon contests enforce narrowing down the choice for canon-compliancy dramatically.
I want to be compliant with the rules (canon) that have remained basically unchanged for ten years, but believe that intentionally leaving gaps for creative people to fill is a good idea. But because I’m a fan of the canon material, I want to respect it by not contradicting it when I fill those gaps. What’s counterintuitive about that?
Except I’ve staked my creative output in the Bionicle community for the last five years on continuing and expanding canon. To abandon canon compliance would be like divorcing a spouse.
But I want to. For the aforementioned reasons.
You know you’re literally saying a canon is not a ruleset? If I want to make something compliant with canon, I have to abide by what canon says. That’s what a ruleset is.
And as only evidenced by the censors, you’re being deliberately inflammatory and unreasonable.
I was going to argue against this but it’s not really relevant.
Genuine question: what do you think my argument actually is? Because when you argued with this point, you didn’t actually contradict the headcanon argument at all. You just gave a reason why there’s a silver lining to invalidating headcanons:
If you really think my argument is baseless, explain specifically why or read some Kierkegaard. My argument is based on the one used to explain the rationality behind belief/value structures. I sincerely hope you don’t want to go down that road.
By all means disagree that invalidating headcanons is sufficient to require the contests to stop (which in this instance was not my argument anyway). If that’s all you’re arguing, we have no issue.
Don’t people usually get banned when they consistently swear on here?
Also something I’m honestly curious about:
Does anyone know of a single semi-large fandom public vote to define something canon that was not a massive storm of heated arguments ending in a good deal of major dissatisfaction with the outcome?
Feel free to prove me wrong, but I can’t imagine it.
From my (admittedly limited) experience that just doesn’t seem to be humanly possible. Which for example politics also confirm to me time and again.
When was the last time that someone has expressly stated that belief? Or the first time?
Or any time?
Most who build their own version of Tahu, as example, are doing so to build their own version of Tahu. If canon didn’t tell them what Tahu looked like, they couldn’t make a variation of it to have as their own.
Those in the camp you and Hazash are in get ruffled when helryx has a depiction and all the previous conceptions you made about your headcanon are now ruined, but… You’re in the minority. Even for those who care about canon, this is a benefit, not a hindrance. Now you know for certain what Helryx looks like so there’s no guesswork, no debates, there’s a definitive version - the ultra purists can now construct their own for their collection and the casual fan can make variations for their headcanon universe.
The only person who loses is the one who already decided exactly what Helryx looked like. My version of Helryx I accepted was not and would never be the canon Helryx, and guess what? I’m not changing it because there’s a canon version because mine was never it to begin with.
More often than not, people make headcanons to be different from the status quo. I don’t understand why your headcanon is the status quo to you, or why finally having clarity is so destructive to the community as a whole, but please don’t respond by saying I’m not the target audience or that I have no business here or whatnot.
Yes. The Artakha contest.
You’re obviously upset, and maybe so is Reddit. But people seemed pretty happy with the outcome from what I saw. Maybe you’ve got the rest of the community on speed dial so if you can get consensus there please let me know.
Otherwise… I’m officially officially bowing out. The arguments in favor of canning the canon contest are getting weak and taking stabs at the community as a whole, and SirKeksalot is busy absolutely destroying the entire discussion, so before any fallout (or before staff locks the topic again) I’m gonna seek refuge in the kakapo topic.
I’ll be back once voting opens. Peace.
A very good question 
I am however very happy with the ‘art being canonised’ system. Because so far, I’ve been dissatisfied with the winning MOCs but pretty satisfied with the winning art. Even if we don’t need an art portion to adhere to BS01’s stipulation for every contest, I think all contests should have them.
Why can’t you just see that my subjective opinion is the correct one??
