It often makes me wonder if people understand the word retcon. Just cus something was once considered “canon” doesn’t mean that it can’t change.
I mean …
This is a highly valid point.
RIP my attempts at being a do-gooder
That’s all very true, and I agree with it. I think @ToaArcan 's last post got to the heart of it, where, I find this is all really very tiring, frankly. It’d be one thing if this happened naturally, in the face of an ongoing story, maybe in serial form, preferably in comic form so that we could get those new depictions of old characters organically. But here, through a slew of these contests that consist of the entirety of “new material” for the series, it feels like voting for the Mangai masks, but with pictures. I realistically don’t expect to turn anyone around to the idea of “authorial intent” or “death of the author” or what have you, however much I wish it might. But… yeah. I refer you to my bio on this site to get a better idea of how I feel about “fandom” in broad generalities.
Point taken, though I’d personally argue that answers on a forum are neither textual nor subtextual, but a grey area in between. But that’s also neither here nor there.
I have no bones to pick with any of this. See my answer to Jerminator.
I still like the idea! If that matters!
In regards to this… even with characters that we have canon appearances on already, I feel like this point doesn’t stick.
I mean MOVs are thing, and have been for a long time.
I see people making their own versions of classic characters all of the time, and the fact that they had set appearances didn’t invalidate that at all
For Mata Nui’s sake, I’ve seen countless versions of Tahu that dont even use one of his masks and they’re often still really cool!
And my favorite Helryx is Yellowryx, but I’m still happy we have a canon model.
And I still have my Artakha moc on my shelf even though it didnt win.
The contests dont really hurt fan interpretation unless you let them.
MOVs are less common than MOCs and very rarely go outside the original parameters of the set. Sure, you’ll occasionally see a depiction of one of the Toa Mahri with their Matoran masks, but for the most part, it’s the same mask, weapons, colours, etc, but with different pieces. Normally more pieces, for one.
But venture outside of that and the affect and appeal is largely lost. Like sure, these do exist:
But they don’t really look like Tahu, unless they’re using the Maxilos mask that was specifically designed after the Hau. The others just look like random MOCs that have been called Tahu for arbitrary reasons.
Yes and no. Yes, at the end of the day, you can always just ignore it. If I hold fully to my “Only the published material counts, forum posts are irrelevant” maxim then I can theoretically disregard the contests in their entirety, and I wouldn’t lose sleep over that. However, it is entirely possible to very much care about the canon and not want more added to it.
Red Star Games have been mentioned a few times in this thread, but let’s use them as a proper example. RSG have been working on the Doronai Nui RPG and its various spinoffs for years now, and they’ve taken a painstaking amount of effort to be as canon-compliant as possible. They’ve created designs for unseen masks, named species, worked with other fans, artist, MOC builder, and 3D modeller alike, to create everything they need. And they’re not just doing this to go “Uh, yeah, this is what this character looks like now, you’re welcome, bye”, they’re making actual, proper content that enables other fans to create their own stories within the Bionicle canon universe.
The contests absolutely hurt RSG. Their masks aren’t even on the table for canonisation because they didn’t want to tell their modellers “Okay you gotta make all your work free now” to be included. So now, RSG has to choose between sacrificing the canon-complicity they worked so hard for until now, or throwing their own hard work out in favour of elements that the contests are adding.
“Just ignore it” isn’t really much of a defense for the contests, TBH.
This, so much this. If we were deciding appearances for these characters for some kind of massive project that would bring more actual content, that’d be one thing. But as-is, it’s just Headcanon-Measuring Contests, most nostalgic/best/least boring MOC wins.
Now it just seems like you’re trying to invalidate other fan’s imagination, which was sort of your whole point, no?
But mom, I’m bored! What else we supposed to do?
I do think there’s a distinction between building something’s that’s recognisably the character it’s meant to be, and building something red and calling it Tahu. The latter may well be imaginative and creative, which is great, but unless it’s reflective of Tahu the character more than Tahu the set(s), it still isn’t going to really feel like Tahu.
S’why I never posted or even photographed my Helryx. I made her after the contest, and adhered as much as I could to what descriptions she had and the goals of the contest process at the time, which largely ignoring the other entries, save for the element of having the mace’s haft be covered in tubing and the head be made of gears. I made her in 2006-2008 scale, in dark blue, with asymmetric armour to represent the battle damage and repairs. I used no parts that would be shared with the Nuva or Mata, to make her alien to Takanuva. And while the end result fit the description (
and arguably did so better than some of the finalists)… it didn’t look like Helryx anymore. It doesn’t feel right. Helryx isn’t a beat-up mecha-Glatorian with a dark blue body and damaged and replaced parts, and a unfamiliar vibe to the 01-03 gang, she’s a weird skinny gremlin with her neck growing out of the base of her sternum, made entirely of 01-03 parts.
I’ve still got my take built, but probably not for much longer. I have other purposes for her parts and I’m not gonna keep a MOC that just doesn’t feel like the character we ended up with.
Also for me personally, there’s a big difference between “Revamping, modifying, or outright ignoring a set that I’m displeased with” and “Revamping, modifying, or outright ignoring someone else’s MOC that I’m displeased with.”
That makes it sound like the issue is a bit more of a personal level rather than the interests of the community as a whole.
But I suppose thats what would be voted on anyways. I don’t think we’ll agree on it and I will vote to continue the contests either way.
So a fan story, with things invented by input from fans. It was never going to be truly canon in the strict sense we all keep going on about. Canon being something different isn’t going to deal that a death blow. Fan works can be and should be different, heck I’ll say it again:
Bionicle canonically exists in a multiverse, there are many different realties out there. Your head canon, your fan stories etc. May as well already be canon.
If the mask appearances in their story are different, then so be it. It’s noble to try work in with canon to make a story more approachable but there’s nothing wrong with it not lining up one hundred percent from canon. The content from these contests can enable creative stories. Maybe in your mind you cannot override that image of a skinny Mata blue Gremlin but others can.
It is though. At this point I’ve come to accept the fact that those of you who are against the contests will never change their minds. And since you and a few others feel so strongly about these contests, you will never stop complaining about them until they end.
These contests do so much good for the community. Bionicle feels alive again. There’s finally something fun to engage in, to talk about. Something exciting. Something new. As annoying as these constant debates are, I’m passionate about them and admittedly enjoy engaging in them from time to time. I’m passionate about Bionicle again, and I attribute that almost entirely to these contests. I just think it’s a shame you guys want this to end. So, yes, I think you should “just ignore” the contests. Ignore them and let everyone else have our fun.
This is a fictional universe where…
… are the same character. If you don’t like the canon Helryx, is ignoring a single image and keeping your own Helryx headcanon really that much of a struggle?
This is a blatant category error. Not only are all three of those depictions of Takua/Takanuva canon and non-contradictory, but they’re also important to his story. How he went from being a small Matoran to the 7th Toa, then when half of his Light was drained.
What you’re suggesting is that the canon depiction of a character can be ignored for something to replace it simply on the grounds of someone’s personal headcanon if they so wished. For someone who would want to adhere to canon as closely as possible, yes, that is a struggle. Even if they could write into their fan fiction about how a character looked different at a different time, they are still acknowledging the official depiction as canon.
If the canon depictions of these characters can ignored so easily, why is deciding these things important in the first place?
The real question is why aren’t we working on DE-canonizing every appearance of all characters we already have so that way everyone has absolute freedom with their interpretations.
Big brain time.
Bruh, I know in story there’s a passing comment about “Wow Takanuva, you’ve got so big” but his size in that third iteration next to his first Toa self is crazy. MOV’s that make the original bigger are almost an improvement really.
So we can come to a consensus about what characters look like. My argument isn’t that the canon appearances should be ignored, more that they can be ignored, as a sort of coping mechanism if you’re one of the few who feels so strongly against a winning entry. And if you are one of those few, you are in the minority, due to the nature of voting… You don’t have to like the winning entry, but everyone else does. So learn to live with it. Ignoring that winning entry is simply one way to deal with it.
… yes? What’s so wrong with that? I detest Tahu Mistika, so I ignore his existence. Do I still acknowledge his place in canon? Of course. I just think of Tahu Mata instead of Mistika when I think of Tahu. The same can be done with say Helryx.
Come on man, you get my point. Takua is far from the only character with a fluid appearance.
Numerous people ignore Stars.
You do realize that the Mata and Inika builds are different and distinct scales, right? Even just a standard Inika build is giant compared to the Mata, even though they’re the same height canonically.
Why is that something we need?
No I don’t, quite honestly. You’re arguing that people can ignore a canonized appearance of a character based on the fact other characters in Bionicle have changed appearances. I hardly see how that’s evidence of anything.
Yes I know they are different and I know they are the same canonically. But we are talking physical sets and Mocs here. People were saying that X, Y or Z winning Moc will crush their head canon but we already have to use head canon and imagination with these plastic toys that are already out of scale even if the books say no. Apologies if I was unclear before, and the ‘bruh’ was meant to be in jest.