BIONICLE G1 Canon Contests Discussion & Questions

[Kodiak]

@Grinch

So as fun as this little charade is when are we going to point out that the tantrum of one wiki moderator doesn’t supercede the acceptance of not only a good part of the community but Greg himself?

I find it ironic that people are putting Greg’s word on a pedestal, citing stuff he said a decade ago that he probably doesn’t care about tbh, only to conveniently ignore him saying 3-D printed parts and painted pieces are a-okay.
“Greg said this a decade ago therefore it’s canon”
“Yeah Greg said 3-D printed parts are fine but one person on a fan wiki blew a fuse over it therefore we shouldn’t use them at all.”

@Cordax

I have an idea: How about nobody otes for the hagah contests so that we don’t have to deal with it. It isn’t a permanant solution, but it works. (kinda)

That ship sailed when people voted for TTV to host more contests for any of the G1 characters lol

[Cordax]

No I mean doesn’t the community vote on what character they want next?

[Racie02]

Nope. Not anymore.
The only two to have a poll now is Marendar and the gsb.

https://board.ttvchannel.com/t/next-bionicle-canon-contest-you-decide/55119/664?u=racie02

Link to eljay’s post on the matter.

[Cordax]

This made me very sad.

[Kodiak]

Even if voting for the next contest was still a thing, wouldn’t that just push the problem under the rug? The Toa Hagah aren’t the only characters eligible for 3-D printed parts, even though there’s arguably more reason to use them since you can pretty much use whatever mask you want. For all we know, a great Toa Tuyet moc using either KhingK or Galva’s mask of intangibility could win the moc contest.

---

Regardless, TTV already compromised by relegating 3-D printed parts to masks and tools only. Greg is also perfectly fine with 3-D printed parts so I doubt TTV’s stance will be changed anytime soon.

[Kini_Hawkeye]

@Racie02

I mean rules and process both.

Kini says that combined moc and art is something you’re considering, whereas that part of the post implies it’s already been decided.

Or it implies that the Hagah will not get individual contests. As in, there won’t be a contest for Pouks, and THEN a contest for Kualus, rather the Hagah will run concurrently.

And more to the point, I fail to see how that somehow invalidates my point that the rules for the Hagah haven’t been made or decided upon and therefore comments about how horribly restrictive they are are, by definition, speculation.

As for the masks my stance is such - there’s no reason to outlaw 3D printed masks on the Hagah other than the finagle-y bit about the fact that doing so technically also canonizes custom masks designs without powers or characters attached to them. It could easily be argued that the statistical likelihood of a Hagah choosing a mask that honours a hero with a mask that’s never been seen before is very low, and that they would most likely have more common masks.

It can also easily be said that regulating 3D masks away is needlessly restrictive for a contest that will likely already be restrictive to fit with canon.

Circular discussion is circular - at this point you’re either for or against 3D printed pieces and given that the majority seems to be okay with them, unfortunately I doubt we’ll be changing the ruling any time soon.

[TheJerminator]

@Kini_Hawkeye

so technically also canonizes custom masks designs without powers or characters attached to them.

There is nothing wrong with this. At least in the sense that it can be done without contradicting canon.

I don’t think very many people would like it, but that would be reflected in the voting. There is no reason to officially ban it from happening.

Of course, there is also the option of allowing the power of the mask to be canonized as well, but that goes beyond the current scope of the contests.

Also, there actually would be a character attached to the mask: Past Hero Whom [Toa Hagah] Honours With Their Mask

[SirKeksalot]

@Kini_Hawkeye

It could easily be argued that the statistical likelihood of a Hagah choosing a mask that honours a hero with a mask that’s never been seen before is very low, and that they would most likely have more common masks.

If I may push a little: why exactly is this unlikely? There are many, many Toa in canon whom we know nothing about. And that’s only one species–“past heroes,” unless I’m missing something, could also mean members of other species who wore certain Kanohi. I’d say that this means the odds of Kanohi being out there which we’ve never heard of is actually pretty high.

Regarding concurrent contests: if you do go through with this, that’d probably shrink the number of entries per Toa, which would be a double-edged sword of sorts. There’s less entries to sift through, which makes the voting process easier to set up; but you also have to set up 4 rounds of polls at once, and people who’d like to enter all 4 contests may not be able to do so (although this is alleviated by all the Toa using the same build). I’m not sure if it’s a good or a bad idea, but it is going to be something of a gamble even if it is a one-time thing.

[Kini_Hawkeye]

@TheJerminator

There is nothing wrong with this. At least in the sense that it can be done without contradicting canon.

I don’t think very many people would like it, but that would be reflected in the voting. There is no reason to officially ban it from happening.

Of course, there is also the option of allowing the power of the mask to be canonized as well, but that goes beyond the current scope of the contests.

Also, there actually would be a character attached to the mask: Past Hero Whom [Toa Hagah] Honours With Their Mask

Your comment about it going beyond the scope of the contests though is exactly the issue. We aren’t canonizing anything but character appearances, and I recall something about being unable to canonize story elements.

Secondary and Tertiary effects of this are that for some characters, like Helryx and Artakha, we’ve ended up canonizing the appearance of a Kanohi that exists as presumably one of the only examples of such. This technically goes beyond that into canonizing the Kanohi the Hagah in question wears, plus the existence of the Kanohi as NOT matching it’s power, plus the fact that the hero they were honouring wore that specific mask, etc etc etc.

It’s not a huge distinction, and for arguably 90% of people it wouldn’t be an issue whatsoever. Obviously though there are still enough people who are either purists or don’t want the contests to exceed their scope that it’s a discussion being had.

@SirKeksalot

If I may push a little: why exactly is this unlikely? There are many, many Toa in canon whom we know nothing about. And that’s only one species–“past heroes,” unless I’m missing something, could also mean members of other species who wore certain Kanohi. I’d say that this means the odds of Kanohi being out there which we’ve never heard of is actually pretty high.

Because if we take the number of masks we are aware of and account for in-universe masks with unknown powers but that have designs (specifically from the comics) we come up with a vast majority of known characters using masks from the same pool. Follow that to it’s conclusion and it becomes increasingly unlikely that a Toa with a completely unknown mask would be well-known enough to inspire a Hagah.

Also, assuming the “Past Heroes” line refers exclusively to Toa as that’s it’s most common usage in Canon.

Note that I said Statistically and not Canonically. And that I said the argument could be made, not that I’m making the argument.

[TheJerminator]

It is totally understandable that the mask power cannot be canonized. Such an addition would require revisiting the foundation of the contests, which is something that probably doesn’t need to be happening right now.

That being said, I don’t think canonizing Past Hero goes beyond the scope of the contest, no more than the Helryx Contest deciding the appearance of the Mask of Psychometry. In both cases, the purpose of the contest was to determine the appearance of the exact, specific Kanohi worn by a certain character (plus the rest of their appearance), and then other, pre-established lore led to the side-canonization of other story elements.

For Helryx, the extra bit of lore was that her mask was in the standard shape of the Mask of Psychometry, so it led to the side-canonization of the standard shape of the Mask.

For the Hagah Contests, the extra bit of lore is that a past hero wore a mask of that shape, so it leads to the side-canonization of Past Hero.

You could canonize a new standard Kanohi shape, as well as the fact that a past hero wore that a mask in that shape, but not canonize the power associated with the shape. That would be within the bounds of the contest.

[Racie02]

I wasn’t able to quote the whole section, because mobile quoting is very hard, but:

@Eljay

such, the art and MOC portions will be hosted together. A

To be clear: I’m not saying you’re wrong, or this invalidates your words. Just trying to show where the confusion could arise from.

Also: I’m only for disallowing 3d parts, if it means mocs can be ‘canon’. Canon mocs are something I will continue to push for, but I have nothing against 3d parts.

I also don’t see how a simeoultaneous moc and art, with 3d parts allowed, will work with the agreement with bs01. If that agreement changes-- by all means, allow 3d parts. Don’t let one person stop you. (And hey, maybe get mocs canon while you’re at it?)

[Kini_Hawkeye]

I was not aware that aspect had been decided in any meaningful way or communicated so I apologize. That being said, my comment was primarily in reference to the “The Hagah contests are already restrictive” comment that was made more than anything - the actual rules aren’t up so even if the process exists that doesn’t mean there’s been any solid confirmation of what the actual requirements for entry will be.

@Racie02

I also don’t see how a simeoultaneous moc and art, with 3d parts allowed, will work with the agreement with bs01. If that agreement changes-- by all means, allow 3d parts. Don’t let one person stop you. (And hey, maybe get mocs canon while you’re at it?)

This is why I’ve been saying it’s not set in stone, though if things have changed then it could absolutely be a non-issue. I too fail to see how the agreement with BS01 stands if we end up with a MoC winning out against a piece of Art so it’s worth discussing for sure.

[TheJerminator]

Here’s the way I see it: The decision to host the Art and MOC Contests together was based on the assumption that the Toa Hagah would use pre-existing Kanohi, so Artwork would not be necessary to create a custom Kanohi.

But, as this discussion has shown, that assumption is not necessarily correct. As such, a separate Art Contest would probably be wise, for the same reason that such Contests were held for Helryx and Artakha.

Of course, I, and I suspect a lot of other people, would be fine with a custom MOC Kanohi being declared official. And that goes for the Helryx and Artakha Contests as well. But that doesn’t fit with the current BS01 agreement.

[Solaris_Magnus]

@Kodiak

I find it ironic that people are putting Greg’s word on a pedestal, citing stuff he said a decade ago that he probably doesn’t care about tbh

“Very Nice” - Greg Farshtey, 2020.

-Sol

[Northmarch]

Just had a thought. If the Hagah masks are honouring past heroes who were not necessarily Toa, do they have to be shaped like actual Kanohi at all?
Ok so here’s an example: Hydraxon doesn’t wear a Kanohi. His mask is technically not a Kanohi mask. It’s a ‘helmet’. As a former member of the HoA and the guy who trained the Toa Mata he could theoretically be considered a past hero.
It’s not unthinkable that one of the Hagah, say Gaaki, might choose to honour him with their mask.
Therefore instead of ‘mask A in the shape of mask B’, Gaaki could wear ‘mask A in the shape of helmet B’.

Just acknowledging another option for Hagah mask choice.
Plus if a totally original mask design does win we don’t necessarily have to canonise the design as mask of unknown power. Just as based on the headwear ( or face) of unnamed past hero, or leave it totally ambiguous.

We can have unique and original designs without canonising beyond the premise of the contests.

[TheJerminator]

That’s not a bad idea.

Unfortunately, it contradicts canon. BS01 specifies that their Kanohi are in the shapes of masks worn by past heroes, based on this source: From Adventures 9: Web of Shadows:

“Each of the six wore a Kanohi mask forged in the shapes worn by the great heroes of the past”

Now, there is a bit of room here for a really stupid argument: You could argue that ‘shapes’ does not have to mean Kanohi. Just the shape of something worn by a past hero. However, that opens up a whole new can of worms; If you say ‘shape’ does not necessarily mean Kanohi, then you are removing the only restriction we currently have on their masks. Gaaki could have a mask in the ‘shape’ of a shinguard worn by a great hero of the past.

I think it is reasonable to state that ‘shapes’ means ‘Kanohi shapes’.

[SirKeksalot]

@TheJerminator

Gaaki could have a mask in the ‘shape’ of a shinguard worn by a great hero of the past.

Hey, if you can make it look cool, why not? Maybe that guy just had really nice legs.

Even so, the odds of anyone actually doing this are really slim because…well, why would you do that? Either you make it look terrible and lose the contest, or you make it look good but nothing like a shin.

[ToaArcan]

I do want to reiterate a point made by @Kodiak earlier, when it comes to the matter of 3D parts.

Getting a 3D-printed mask is probably cheaper than getting official ones in certain cases, meaning that, were one of those rare official ones to win, then it’d be harder for people to recreate it than if a 3D-printed mask won.

I mean heck, one of the entrants has consistently used rare and expensive parts in his contest entries.

Some of these parts were only printed in limited numbers, like the trans-blue Mask of Water, others are extremely rare drops due to the changeover between two different shades of the same colour, like the pearl gold Kraakhan, and some are just straight-up misprints, like the Toa-coloured Noble masks from 2001.

Even some masks that were made for retail sets are extremely expensive now. Want to know how much the gold Ignika is on Bricklink?

$150. That is not a joke.

Oh, also, there are only six of them left on the site. Four in the US, one in Russia, and one in the UK.

Want a blue Matatu? Well there’s one in Germany for £26, but past that you’re looking at a minimum of £40. For a mask.

The Rurus appear to be the most common of the Mata-coloured misprints, so what about them? Want a red one for Kapura? There’s six of them, they’re all in Europe, and they start from £19:75. They seem to be cheaper in other colours, but they’re basically all in Europe, besides the black one, which got mass-released in the Power Pack and Hafu’s individual 03 set.

How about the dark blue Ruru from Idris, one of the only Toa-suiting masks widely available in dark blue. Probably quite desirable considering that both Tuyet and Orde are on the horizon. None left. They’re all gone.

That trans-blue Mask of Water I mentioned earlier? Not even listed.

With 90% of the 3D printed masks, you’ll pay more for shipping than for the mask itself, and if you happen to have a 3D printer yourself, then you don’t even need to pay for that.

3D printed masks are way more accessible than the rare masks. And, as a bonus? If you wait for a bit after the art contest wraps up, then you can probably get a printed mask which is actually the canon mask design, instead of shelling out silly money for something that’s actually just a placeholder.

So if your main concern is accessibility, then a 3D option is much more accessible than even some official parts released at retail.

[Kanohi_Cantri]

Here’s how I could see the art and MOC contests for the Toa Hagah working in-tandem.

Case 1: Custom masks and armor/weaponry. As we already know that they are a group with Metru builds, it is easy to assume (ref) that the only information we are missing is the shape and color of their masks, armor, and weaponry. With the art portion, we have the shortcut-canon art coming in directly from the start that could cover these unknowns. However, as only doing an art contest would be reclusive of those with building abilities, but lack drawn artistic drive, having a concurrent MOC contest would allow for more participation. If a MOC were to win, then to follow up the rules, we could hold another art contest after that. This art would be restricted to the design of the masks, armor, and weaponry, and would only serve the purpose of “de-Lego-izing” the MOC, allowing it to be shared on the BS01 wiki. You may argue that restricting art is terrible, but remember that those who wanted their renditions of the Hagah could have already shared it in the previous art contest, so it wouldn’t be much dissimilar as to drawing fan art of the winning entry, which so happened to be a MOC.

Case 2: Customization is not allowed. Disallowing the assumption referenced above such to the point that we would recognize their look, we could limit the competition to pure Lego marketed product. As no non-Lego items would be used, any entry would automatically be considered as following the ideals put forth by BS01. By these means, either art work or a MOC could represent the official image of the Hagah, so to that point, why not hold both competitions at the same time? Because obviously the art would have easy rule over the physical builds and win? Not necessarily in this scenario, as any artist would also be bound by mimicking real Lego pieces in their art (or so that I would suggest to make it more fair).

Any way this contest is run, there is going to be limitations, and we as a community need to consider the possibility that, maybe, not everything can go our way, as the use of the term “our” is far too loose to be defined in a detailed manor over a large membership. Let’s just be thankful that these competitions are being held at all.

[TheJerminator]

Or you could just run it like the other two contests: customization is allowed, and there is a separate Art Contest after. I see no reason to change the rules just because the Hagah have weird masks, or because we know they are Metru builds.

Every character is going to have restrictions. There is no need to change the rules to try to fill the gaps of those restrictions.