BIONICLE G1 Canon Contests Discussion & Questions

[TheJerminator]

@CMO

It disincentives actual pieces while also making official sets “dubiously canon” at best, and non-canon at worst.

How in the hell does allowing 3d printed parts make official sets non-canon? Never mind, I see what you mean now. I still don’t think that’s a very big deal though.

@CMO

We already know that they look identical to what the Inika wear, only metallic

Not true. Greg has gone back and forth on this may times, even within the span of hours. There is no clear answer. The only thing on this topic that we know for sure is that the asymmetry of Kongu’s organic Suletu is unique to his mask; it is not a feature of the standard Suletu or even the “standard” organic Suletu.

Also, you talk about following precedent, but then refuse to acknowledge the precedent of the official Krakua model having a non-canon mask shape.

If we’re going to follow precedent, then I would say that Krakua sets the precedent for official models having non-canon masks.

And Greg has said it himself that the models are not necessarily the true canon depictions, since they are limited by the parts available to the model designers.

[Kodiak]

@CMO

There is no reason to use fan fiction pieces for masks that already exist from an official source. There is no reason to make official models “less canon” because a subset doesn’t like the official piece(s)*. That’s not me knocking 3D modelers. It takes an incredible amount of talent and skill to make those. The Mask of Creation used for the winning MOC, for instance? Incredible. But at the end of the day, they shouldn’t be used as substitutes for official pieces.

Canon and previous contests have already encouraged the use of painted and 3-D printed helmets. Tuyet’s canon appearance isn’t going to be her wearing a $40 Ruru. Nidhiki wears a green Volitak, which obviously requires green paint if you want to build a canon representation.

I could more easily come around your point if previous art contests slapped on existing masks, helmets, and had no pieces that are required to be painted if you want to replicate the figure. It’s apparent that’s not the case.

[Atobe_Brick]

@Racie02

You know, like every other contest.

This is different from the other contests. Helryx and Artakha had masks with completely unknown appearances. We know what mask Nidhiki’s mask is, and one could argue that we know exactly what it looks like (Mazeka’s mask but green).

However, I do agree that any mask/helmet should be allowed, just so that these contests are more accessible.

[Underscore]

Want a non-aquatic version of the Volitak? Don’t attach a tube, and don’t include the eye piece.

Still has a breathing device on it.

nonorganic versions of the Inika masks? We already know that they look identical to what the Inika wear, only metallic. Where does that come from? Jovan and Tobduk

If you acknowledge that some elements of official sets are non/semi-canon such as Krakua’s mask, why assume the masks on these two are 100% canon? They may not be.

now you want to do it for Nidhiki because it looks vaguely bug-like

Well no, it’s because it has a very close resemblence to Nidhki’s head in his mutated form, was clearly based on it and was once intended to be his mask in an official set before it got changed to Iruini.

And that Maxilos mask looking like an aquatic Hau is a stretch. It’s just its face, or otherwise some nondescript helmet. You might as well say Hydraxon’s helmet looks like an aquatic Akaku.

There’s definitely a noticeable resemblance. Hydraxon’s face doesn’t look like an Akaku though.

[TheJerminator]

Are people actually seriously discussing giving Nidhiki a Kualsi?

He is confirmed to have a Volitak. End of discussion.

While we do not know what a standard Volitak looks like, we know that it does NOT look like a Kualsi.

I could accept that Nidhiki perhaps has a Volitak variant, like Lhikan’s Hau, but none of the Hagah “wrong shape” shenanigans.

[SomeBionicleFan23]

Maybe we can combine the kualsi and volitak and say it’s Nidiki’s variant of the mask like this.

[Takutanuva]

@Underscore

Still has a breathing device on it.

@Takutanuva

Also I think the volitak works well even as a land variant-the rebreather works well with its own power. It looks like it could be some type of vocal silencer/muffler.

This is a special ops gas mask with a vocal scrambler, its not an underwater mask.

This is a volitak without the tubes.

I think my point holds fairly well, at least in my mind.

[CMO]

@TheJerminator

Not true. Greg has gone back and forth on this may times, even within the span of hours. There is no clear answer. The only thing on this topic that we know for sure is that the asymmetry of Kongu’s organic Suletu is unique to his mask; it is not a feature of the standard Suletu or even the “standard” organic Suletu.

It’s true that Greg’s done this, but I believe that the sets weigh heavier here in light of his flip-flopping as the sets keep it consistent- the masks look identical.

@TheJerminator

Also, you talk about following precedent, but then refuse to acknowledge the precedent of the official Krakua model having a non-canon mask shape.

Except I do acknowledge it- I think it’s silly. It’s valid saying that Krakua established first that the model didn’t necessarily correlate to actual in-story appearance. But proportionally, 3-1, Krakua’s outmatched. The sets following him have kept the masks consistent.

@Kodiak

Canon and previous contests have already encouraged the use of painted and 3-D printed helmets. Tuyet’s canon appearance isn’t going to be her wearing a $40 Ruru. Nidhiki wears a green Volitak, which obviously requires green paint if you want to build a canon representation.

I could more easily come around your point if previous art contests slapped on existing masks, helmets, and had no pieces that are required to be painted if you want to replicate the figure. It’s apparent that’s not the case.

So here’s my thing about the art contests in specific regards to the masks: whether it be Nikila, Surel, or the winning Helryx, the masks were all created with the express intention of being canonized. However, unless I’m missing a massive oversight, the 3D parts allowed into these competitions were in no way originally created with canonization in mind-they predate the contests, meaning they were created as pieces of fanon. In other words, they’re fan fiction. Canonizing them is the equivalent of taking a short story written on BZP in 2006 and making it canon. It was never intended to be proper canon. Could it have followed within the purview of canon and not trip up once? Sure, but it still exists in a void. It wasn’t created with the express intention of being entered into a contest where it had the chance of being canonized.
IF the 3D masks that have been involved in the contest so far have been created with the express intention of being entered into these contests, then fair play, they’re as equally valid in my mind as the other pieces of artwork. I still don’t particularly like the fact that they’re included, but I can tolerate it better.
As for painting pieces, I also don’t particularly like it, but at least they’re official pieces. And depending on what paint you’re using and how you apply it, you can remove it after the fact (to varying degrees of success).

@Underscore

Still has a breathing device on it.

And Akakus and Matatus still have eyepieces on them. For all we know, that canister could be a common thing in the MU. I see no reason to disregard it.

@Underscore

If you acknowledge that some elements of official sets are non/semi-canon such as Krakua’s mask, why assume the masks on these two are 100% canon? They may not be.

Ditto to what I said to Jerminator: Greg flip-flopping so much versus the consistency of the sets, plus proportionally we have more sets that suggest consistency in appearance.

@Underscore

Well no, it’s because it has a very close resemblence to Nidhki’s head in his mutated form, was clearly based on it and was once intended to be his mask in an official set before it got changed to Iruini.

I only said bug-like because that’s in-story how he’s supposed to appear. And yeah, by this point we all know the Hagah sets’ backgrounds. Doesn’t stop the fact that that’s simply not a Volitak, it’s a Kualsi. I still maintain my point that the less-recognizable a character pre-traumatic mutation the better.

@Underscore

There’s definitely a noticeable resemblance.

Eh, agree to disagree I guess.

[TropiNui]

@CMO

And using a Kualsi for Nidhiki’s mask? Seriously, how many people have complained about the Hagah not using masks that are shaped like their own Kanohi? And now you want to do it for Nidhiki because it looks vaguely bug-like? Okay boomer.

Dude I was saying that as a joke. A meme. And yeah at the time I thought of it like that… but that was when I was a child. I also turned around and used it for a makuta who wasn’t remotely bug-like, and for a Matoran. So sorry that I saw a similarity and found it kinda funny. I for a fact know that the mutations inflicted can be eXTREME… just look at the rahagah or the Hordika for that matter.

Like look at the artwork I did of him, based on a literal MOC that a friend made, using the aquatic Volitak.

And as for your prior comment about ‘nonorganic versions of the inika masks’. Yes, and I really like the Calix and the Iden.

But you can’t exactly slap those masks on like a matoran build that’s a billion times smaller than the Inika sets. So the fact there are 3D models to supplement is something of a small blessing.

@CMO

Incredible. But at the end of the day, they shouldn’t be used as substitutes for official pieces.

Official mask of creation… Hmn. Right. You mean the one from G2?
You mean like the G2 masks that are actually smaller than most, if not all G1 masks? And that are generally ‘reeee’d’ over if g2 is mixed with g1?

Now granted, Connor did a marvelous job and kept in mind how the mask would scale when he said there could be a conversion in case someone doesn’t have access to Khing’s work or liked the G2 MoC better.

I do not agree with this line of thinking, because it’s a literal step away from “CCBS shouldn’t be used with Original Constraction” or “Parts should NEVER be painted”

It’s strict, it’s stifling. Our parts are crumbling and cracking before our eyes, the perfect mask needed for a MOC could cost $300, or the person who owns it is unwilling to part with it… and a new action figure series on the scale of Bionicle/G2/Hero factory steadily lessens and lessens. I’d love to be proven wrong, though.

Bionicle lives, survives and thrives because people are keeping it alive, and its evolution lies in 3D models, things that supplement, compliment and in the sad truth of those old 08 leg pieces and lime joints or for the future conservation of parts like Tahu Nuva’s swords or Vakama Hordika’s torch pieces from THE FORBIDDEN CUT, replace…

And to say 3D parts aren’t effectively welcome…

It’s gatekeeping people who want to design new masks, to design masks with unknown designs, after all, why bother when the MOC that won the Helryx contest used a Pakari? So the mask of Psychometry just looks like a Pakari or worse, continues to have no official design, which renders the entire point of these contests null and void.

It gatekeeps the 3D modellers who put time effort and research into making their work reflect the G1 aesthetic.

I’m getting wordy and I need coffee, so I’mma end it there.

[TheJerminator]

@CMO

But proportionally, 3-1, Krakua’s outmatched. The sets following him have kept the masks consistent.

You don’t know that. There is nothing confirming that Tobuk, Jovan, and Mazeka’s masks are 100% canon.

In fact:

Chat with Greg Farshtey | Page 514

That is awfully reminiscent of the reasoning that lead to Krakua’s Hau being determined non-canon.

@CMO

the masks were all created with the express intention of being canonized.

I fail to see why this matters, other than the fact that any given fan-fiction may contradict canon. But none of the masks so far contradict canon. Also, Helryx’s mask was designed with the explicit purpose of becoming canon.

Also, I can guarantee you that virtually everyone who entered these contests already had ideas in their head before the contests were announced; these contests just gave them a reason to show off those ideas. None (or at least very few) of these creative works were generated purely in response to the contests.

@Takutanuva

This is a special ops gas mask with a vocal scrambler

@CMO

that canister could be a common thing in the MU.

This makes perfect sense. It’s always bugged me that the “non-aquatic” version still had that canister, but this actually explains it; the mask muffles natural “contact” noise, but it often uses an external attachment to muffle breathing, just like how the Akaku often uses an external scope to enhance vision.

[CMO]

@TropiNui

Dude I was saying that as a joke. A meme . And yeah at the time I thought of it like that… but that was when I was a child . I also turned around and used it for a makuta who wasn’t remotely bug-like, and for a Matoran. So sorry that I saw a similarity and found it kinda funny. I for a fact know that the mutations inflicted can be eXTREME… just look at the rahagah or the Hordika for that matter.

I mean, genuinely wasn’t directly replying to you or anyone else in particular, I was more so just addressing the zeitgeist of recent. You’re not the only one’s who suggested it, meme or not. Eljay himself in one of the podcasts floated the idea around (IIRC, he was thinking of asking Greg if they/we/whoever could use the mask on him).

@TropiNui

You mean the one from G2?

Actually, no. As as space-filler on a MOC? Sure. But officially? No. Just as the G2 Toa’s masks looked different from their G1 counterparts, so too would the G1 Mask of Creation. The artwork portion of the contest would (hopefully) course-correct that if a G2 MoC won. Even though we still don’t know who won the art portion of Artakha’s contest, it seems reasonable to assume that Khing’s mask probably made it through. And I’m begrudgingly okay with it, because it is a fantastic mask.

@TropiNui

it’s a literal step away from “CCBS shouldn’t be used with Original Constraction” or “Parts should NEVER be painted”

I never said either of those things. CCBS is fine as it’s been used so far, and WholesomeGadunka’s Artakha was my favorite, and it was slathered in paint.

@TropiNui

It’s gatekeeping people who want to design new masks, to design masks with unknown designs, after all, why bother when the MOC that won the Helryx contest used a Pakari? So the mask of Psychometry just looks like a Pakari or worse, continues to have no official design, which renders the entire point of these contests null and void .

It gatekeeps the 3D modellers who put time effort and research into making their work reflect the G1 aesthetic.

To the Pakari, it was always meant as a placeholder. The artwork portion of these contests was specifically designed to counteract this for people like me (well, one particular person, but let’s not get into that).

As for gatekeeping modelers, as I said above, if the masks are specifically designed for the contest, then that’s (begrudgingly) fine. It’s that the masks were never designed as part of a contest that I have issues with. As I said in my initial post, the work they do is incredible. It’s not the modelers themselves I have an issue with, it’s the continuity of when they made their work.

[Winger]

And here, in the Fourth Epoch, we argue about masks. So you see the time-honored saying proved once again: history repeats itself.

@Cordax

– His Majesty the King’s Sixteenth Scribe, Recorded at 11:13 Post Meridian GMT, 17 of November, Year of our Lord 2020.

[CMO]

@TheJerminator

You don’t know that. There is nothing confirming that Tobuk, Jovan, and Mazeka’s masks are 100% canon.
…
That is awfully reminiscent of the reasoning that lead to Krakua’s Hau being determined non-canon.

Well, guess there’s a Greg quote for everything . In the which case, I still don’t agree with it or Greg. It just adds unnecessary ambiguity and convolutedness.

@TheJerminator

I fail to see why this matters, other than the fact that any given fan-fiction may contradict canon. But none of the masks so far contradict canon.

It’s the same principle. It existed beforehand, with not the explicit intention of being canon, so to adopt it as canon is… not great imo. It’d be like if Greg decided that this story by GSR was the canon ending to the serials. On one hand, it’s a great story and a cool way to end it, but on the other hand, it was never intended to be official, so to retroactively call it canon is kinda weird.

@TheJerminator

Also, Helryx’s mask was designed with the explicit purpose of becoming canon.

Yup, and I don’t have a single problem with it. It was inherently designed for this contest.

@TheJerminator

Also, I can guarantee you that virtually everyone who entered these contests already had ideas in their head before the contests were announced; these contests just gave them a reason to show off those ideas. None (or at least very few) of these creative works were generated purely in response to the contests.

Oh absolutely. I did too. But there’s a reason why a lot of contests don’t allow a participant to enter a work (be it MOC, story, art, or something else) that has been released beforehand.

[TropiNui]

@CMO

I mean, genuinely wasn’t directly replying to you or anyone else in particular, I was more so just addressing the zeitgeist of recent. You’re not the only one’s who suggested it, meme or not. Eljay himself in one of the podcasts floated the idea around (IIRC, he was thinking of asking Greg if they/we/whoever could use the mask on him).

Ah, alright. Yeah no I’d rather he have the Volitak. My apologies. Because I was the first to mention it here, as far as I knew, I thought it was kinda pointed at me.

@CMO

I never said either of those things. CCBS is fine as it’s been used so far, and WholesomeGadunka’s Artakha was my favorite, and it was slathered in paint.

I’m not saying you did, I’m saying that kind of thinking is a sort of step away from those two lines of thought. Which is a reason why I didn’t really agree with it.

@CMO

To the Pakari, it was always meant as a placeholder. The artwork portion of these contests was specifically designed to counteract this for people like me (well, one particular person, but let’s not get into that).

As for gatekeeping modelers, as I said above, if the masks are specifically designed for the contest, then that’s (begrudgingly) fine. It’s that the masks were never designed as part of a contest that I have issues with. As I said in my initial post, the work they do is incredible. It’s not the modelers themselves I have an issue with, it’s the continuity of when they made their work.

Alright that’s fair enough, I can see your point,

Pardon my huge wordy impassioned rant about 3D models lol

[TheJerminator]

But your issue wasn’t with when it was created; your issue was with why something was created.

Obviously, if something was released before the contests, it was not created with the contests in mind. But even if something new is entered into the contests, there is no way of knowing if that idea was created before or after the contests. A lot of people are entering entries of their headcanons - “fan fiction”, if you will. And these headcanons have been 10-15 years in the making: long before the contests were ever announced.

Even if a MOC has never been released before the contests, I’m pretty sure that the design and aesthetics were chosen by the builder before the contest started. Are you going to try to ban that entry because the idea was created before the contests without the explicit intention of becoming canon?

For example: about a year ago, I stumbled upon some various fanart of Tuyet, as well as ideas for what her mask and sword might look like. I liked what I saw, and I combined some of those ideas into my own little picture of what Tuyet might look like.

Imagine my surprise when I see that these contests are announced, and we will finally get a canon depiction of Tuyet after all. Maybe she will even look like my idea!

But by your reasoning, I shouldn’t be allowed to submit a MOC of my idea since I did not come up with the idea with the intention of getting it canonized.

[Cordax]

My new opinion is!

bubabababababababa-

Just use a volitak for Nhidhki!

[eldritchander]

I fully intend to! Got myself a resin copy of the mask in Metru green!

[TheJerminator]

That sounds awesome. How good do the colours match?

[eldritchander]

I’ll post pics when it comes in the mail, but based on my previous dealings with the seller, if should be pretty ■■■■ close to spot on.

[Racie02]

@CMO

the 3D parts allowed into these competitions were in no way originally created with canonization in mind-they predate the contests, meaning they were created as pieces of fanon. In other words, they’re fan fiction. Canonizing them is the equivalent of taking a short story written on BZP in 2006 and making it canon. It was never intended to be proper canon.

So, a fanon mask that was made five days ago, with the intent of complying with canon, being canonized is fine, but a mask that was made five years ago, with the intent of complying with canon, being canonized is not fine.
Gotcha.

@CMO

the consistency of the sets,

What sets?
Tobduk wasn’t a set.
Jovan wasn’t a set. (Heck, he’s a combiner model, of course he has the same mask)