That grey one on the left kind of reminds me of one of the Helryx Art entries.
And yet one of our most iconic Toa wore an immoral Kanohi.
I think the Hagah-if any Toa- would most certainly be the Toa to wear these (and they arenât even ACTUALLY wearing them). These are Toa serving MAKUTA. They obviously have to put some level of their ego on morality. Makuta at the time were good guys technically, but they still did it in ways the Toa code wouldâve considered immoral. And theyâre serving them? You can already see how contrary that sounds. These Toa that get selected have to have the ability to be impartial and still honorable. They would be the types to recognize heroism even in Makuta-the ones in which they are sworn to defend.
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To be fair, itâs not like Matoro had a say in what mask Ignika would grant him during the transformation into Mahri.
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Iâm not quite sure how much of this the Toa actually knew about.
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Not by choice. It was a realization that came as a shock to Matoro. He greatly opposed wearing it.
These were offered as gifts to the Toa Hagah by their former teammates. Granted, other sources claim they were made by Matoran slaves of the Brotherhood, so Iâm not sure how that all lines up. Point being, no Toa is going to opt to wear a mask that is considered or aligned as immoral.
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Hereâs something else to think about: the masks wouldnât actually have the immoral powers, just the shape. Would that make a difference to Toa? I have no idea.
Although Greg has always tried to put emphasis on shapes matching powers, so maybe the Hagah actually would be opposed to the shape.
While this is true, itâs still an occurrence. We also donât have have any way to prove that a Toa in the past hasnât had a situation where theyâve landed a Kanohi considered immoral by chance.
They arenât wearing the mask to represent a mask. Theyâre wearing a mask to represent a hero. Its not their actual mask power as to what we know. The kraahkan in this instance wouldnât be worn to represent the kraahkan. Itâs worn to represent the hero, Teridax. Someone who played a role in bringing freedom and ending tyranny.
I can relate this to something very commonly seen in everyday life. Christianity. A cross is a brutal tool of torturous death. Christians donât wear a cross because they find torturous death to be glorious. They wear it to represent Jesus Christ. Symbols are sometimes contrary to what they mean. Its the association that matters.
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Another way to look at it is that they arenât wearing a Kraahkan; theyâre wearing Teridaxâs mask.
Still though, I think itâs reasonable that a Toaâs moral objection to a mask could overpower their willingness to pay respect. It could honestly go both ways.
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It could, yes. But I do believe a Hagah would be the ones willing to be impartial on that. It could even vary within the Hagah themselves. It just seems to me that if there would be a circumstance-that this would be it.
And also, again to the point that Makuta were considered good. As mentioned just up above, Matoro was given pity to be having to wear such a mask. The Toa may of looked at the Makuta with a sort of pity for having to wear a mask and it being their burden to bear. It would even add to the reverence and symbolism of them taking up that heroâs mask as a symbol
I would like to point out that Teridax got his Hagah team after the Makuta were given their regions to govern, something (unless Iâm mistaken) prompted by how Teridax handled the ending of the Matoran Civil War⌠which helped him gain a reputation among the Matoran of being a monster.
Iâm gonna cut you off at the pass here and suggest brushing up on our rules on religious and political discussion. Find another example.
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Generally, the push to get immoral masks considered doesnât make much sense to me. If you are wearing a specific shape out of honor, it doesnât make sense to choose something that represents an immoral power, regardless of who wore it. 
Iâll just quietly voice that Iâm perfectly ok with that idea.
Uh, people didnât consider him a baddie, but Hero is probably a strong word. He was responsible for the Archives Massacre at around this point.
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Well it was an impartial statement of fact. Symbols are symbols. I could mention more symbols in life that are represented through this sense but if pictography canât be discussed impartially then I can not.
You are welcome to find another example.
As it stands, I have not heard a compelling or sourced argument for the Kraahkan to be allowed. Again, nothing is set in stone, but these conversations will be taken into consideration.
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Perhaps not to you, but I made several other points besides that one. We know that at the end of the day that Toa were people and subject to having differing views a d opinions amongst themselves.
Perhaps not to me⌠who is one of the main people running these contests. Iâm one of the people you need to convince.
-sigh-
An occurrence that ignores context is not helpful and will not properly transfer into useful data. He did not have an immoral mask by choice. He was repulsed by it because it was a mask power that went against a Toaâs moral code. As such, we cannot use Matoro wearing an immoral mask as an argument for more Toa to wear them. Thatâs not how this works.
Further, if we canât prove a Toa in the past hasnât had a situation where theyâve landed a Kanohi considered immoral by chance⌠we also canât prove that situation has happened either. And given our one example is an exception and not the rule, this point is moot.
Please find me a source where Teridax was heralded as a hero after the end of the League war and I will give you this point. I can source where the Matoran did not like him from The Mutran Chronicles.
Another important note, we are discussing the very same Toa that actively rebelled against the Makuta they were hired on to defend. So in that same respect, they have the ability to recognize their duty as Toa above their duty as Makutaâs bodyguards.
Are there any other points I missed? If so, please let me know.
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Goodness, what have I startedâŚ
I completely agree that the Hagah would likely not have an immoral mask. And given that the MOC contest is about a new character and not a new mask design, I can accept no Glatorian/HF/multi-part heads (but I will be sad about it). I do have a couple of clarification questions, though.
Are the organic masks allowed? Tobduk used one to represent his non-organic Sanok. If not all of them, I recommend allowing the Sanok since that part has been used for its organic and inorganic versions in the past.
Is the Olmak allowed? The second one had a âvariety of ownersâ, one could have been a hero a Hagah wanted to honor.
Are the Hordika masks âstandardâ? Iâm leaning towards no, since they were mutated one-offs. Although, Whenuaâs Ruru design did show up on Prototype, so it technically wasnât a one-off mask design.
Can a âstandardâ mask painted a new single shade become the canon depiction?
I suppose I could ask about the 14 karat gold Hau, but I donât think that will come up⌠Anyways thanks, sorry for the barrage of questions. Better to get them out of the way now!
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I donât know about the rest, but I can tell you for sure that this will be allowed.
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As Eljay has already explained, Matoro was not given a choice to wear the Tryna and was troubled by it. Itâs also important to consider why some masks are immoral. Sometimes its because Matoran/Toa view the actual power as immoral (Kraahkan, Jutlin, Crast, Tryna, Avsa, Mohtrek), while others are immoral simply due to their association with Makuta (Shelek, Felnas). The Mask of Mutation, worn by Miserix, is not considered immoral because he was not part of the rebellion. Itâs the second category of immoral masks that the Hagah could wear. If theyâre fine protecting and serving actual Makuta, I donât see why they wouldnât wear masks associated with Makuta.
While this certainly is correct, I donât think it really matters. Again, if the Hagah wouldnât wear masks associated with Makuta due to the Matoranâs apprehension of them, why would they even serve a Makuta, which would arguably be worse?
But I do agree that the Kraahkan should NOT be an option for the Hagah, for two main reasons:
- Itâs in the category of masks where its power is considered immoral. Perhaps it wasnât always considered immoral, but we donât know for sure.
- Teridax wore the Kraahkan, and he was who the Hagah were guarding. The Hagah had their masks in the shape of past heros. If one of them happened to have their mask shaped after Teridax himself, I think it wouldâve been mentioned (I know the out of universe explanation is simply that LEGO didnât design the other Hagah, and therefore didnât care, but there is no in story explanation for why this detail wouldâve been left out).
I also think pretty much all the Makuta masks should be off limits. Even if the Hagah were fine wearing the Felnas, Shelek, or Mask of Mutation, we do not know what their standard shapes look like. Chiroxâs Shelek was shapeshifted to have fangs, Gorastâs Felnas was mutated by the swamp, and Miserixâs Mask of Mutation is also shapeshifted.
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Possibly because the Hagah were selected, served, and rebelled or perished millenia before the Makuta were widely understood as an evil organization?
From the Mutran Chronicles:
Miserix ordered his lieutenant to step in and stop the fighting. By this time, that particular Makuta was already contemplating the overthrow of the Great Spirit Mata Nui, so no doubt he saw this as an opportunity to show how well the Makuta could impose order. Unfortunately, his solution was to seal large numbers of the opposing armies in the Archives and unleash the exhibits on them. It was, needless to say, quite a mess to clean up later. And it did nothing to inspire great love for the Brotherhood in the hearts of the Matoran, though they certainly behaved themselves afterwards.
The Makutaâs rebellion wasnât official until some time later, but this action (which happened 79,100 years ago) caused the Matoran to fear the Makuta, at least Teridax for his actions. Shortly after this happened, the Brotherhood started organizing the Hagah teams. Teridaxâs Hagah team rebelled 1,300 years ago when they learned the Makuta stole the Avohkii.