I’d argue that your exact point could be made because the mask of Shadow and the mask of Light are indeed supposed to be similar. I don’t however see that as a reason as to why it would not be worn. The greatest reason I have seen above is that someone said that having one member (especially not the leader) wear a mask in the semblance of the mask of Shadow is because it can almost subvert what would be the apparent power dynamic of the team. But just because of the general relativity in relation to something else is not something I’d find, personally. But if we keep saying what our ‘opinions’ of the mindsets of the characters would be we’re both being disingenuous to be honest. That was my initial issue with the whole concept of not wearing masks worn by Makuta’s. We’re assuming opinions of Toa based off of a concept within the Toa code that maybe only HALFWAY applies because there is indeed no mask power tied to these Hagah masks (based solely off their shape)*
I mean, one can posit that if the power of a mask is repulsive/immoral, than even if the user was heroic, you’d be unlikely to honour them by shaping your not immorally powered mask after their immoral one.
There are plenty of individuals throughout history that were heroic despite involvement with otherwise immoral or “evil” groups. We remember them for who they were and more importantly, what they did, not the symbols associated with them.
But I digress. These Hagah contests are, quite simply, one of the few scenarios where canon cannot be the sole arbiter and the community must make some decisions about masks, at least in the process. While there are arguments to be made for allowing any and all masks, there are just as many for banning them. That said, I maintain the Makuta’s masks should be off limits if only because the monumental list of reasons to do so. I will however concede that there isn’t really a compelling reason to go either way on the flipped Kraakhan.
That is also an assumption. And personally I feel like it would vary from individual opinion, especially amongst the Hagah who would probably be more open minded about Makuta than an average Toa. (At least originally).
There are also instances where we DO have associations with historically significant figures being associated with symbols that are otherwise considered not the greatest. I will not be providing examples though as they’re inherently controversial and I was warned last time I brought up something that had the depth to be controversial even if it was for the same of being impartial and as evidence.
Going solely off of the controversy within the forums I’m not going to be using it anyways as it does not appear to be received well.
But I am still interested in this conversation BESIDES just the kraahkan. We’re discussing symbology and what it means amongst the Matoran/Toa. I find this to be a very interesting talking point.
Even if the flipped Kraakhan is meant to symbolize the mask of Light and Shadow, it is not the canonical shape of the MoLaS, so it should be allowed.
Here is my current list of existing Bionicle pieces that may be considered as ‘standard’ Kanohi, obviously subject to change. I give my own reasons why it should or shouldn’t be considered standard. Let me know if I missed any!
It is of my own personal opinion that if a MOC uses a ‘standard’ piece shape, it can become canon without an art contest.
EDIT: There is some question on the timeline of other Toa teams. Still, Lhikan’s Hau is not specified as a unique variant, the Rode is not specified as unique, and the Olmak had a “variety of users”.
The Inika masks canonically look the same as their organic versions, with the exception of the Suletu. They’re just made of metal and not organic.
Yes, a noble mask can be honoring a past hero. See: Norik wearing a noble Kiril-shaped Pehkui.
The Hordika masks are mutated, yes, but they are the standard shapes of those masks when mutated (except the Matatu, because Scope). See: Savage, who has a mutated Ruru. Now, would a mutated being be a past hero? Prooooobably not, but it is possible.
The Stars Hau is literally just a Hau. Yes, it’s an adaptive mask, but it’s an adaptive mask made to look like a Hau. (okay, so the piece is a slightly different shape, but that’s just pedantic)
Couple things on the Kraahkan issue:
I think it’s perfectly reasonable for a Hagah to have their mask shaped after their Makuta. If they thought modeling their masks after Makuta would be at odds with their morality, they wouldn’t sign on to protect the Makuta in all likelihood. Just because we know that the Kraahkan has immoral powers doesn’t mean the Hagah would have known at the time. Barely anyone outside the BOM knew what Teridax’s name was, I seriously doubt he went around telling everyone the extent of his mask powers.
That being said, if anyone should have the Kraahkan, it should be Norik because he’s the leader. Unfortunately, we know he does not, so it’d be kind of weird if someone else did. Personal preference though, IMO it shouldn’t be banned.
Here’s a couple quotes on the flipped Kraahkan, though I’m sure there are more:
November 2003: The orientation has no storyline significance as far as Greg knew
July 2015: Greg doesn’t recall any storyline significance
I think the flipped Kraahkan shares a whole lot more similarities with the Pakari than it does with the Avohkii, personally, and that’s just because the Pakari was used in prototypes.
If I recall there is a Greg quote saying they “probably” looked different.
I think that would be an exception to the norm, so we can’t assume as such unless Greg were to confirm that.
Pedantic is my middle name. Also, it is listed as such in BS01.
IIRC, there’s an older quote where he says they looked the same.
Personally, I see it this way: if a Hagah moc uses the Stars Hau, it’s almost certainly meant to represent, well, a standard Hau. I mean, it’s literally the same shape, just a bit smaller.
maybe the guy forging it was just having a bad day, or he had a defective mold
This is unclear at best. (Except for the Suletu; the asymmetry is unique to Kongu’s mask, not because it is organic, but because it was buried for a long time. It was asymmetrical before it was organic)
That exact Hau worn by Tahu is adaptive, but there is nothing canonically different about the Stars shape. That piece can be used as a standard Hau.
Also, I think(?) that the Hagah were formed before Lhikan was a Toa; his mask probably couldn’t have been used. (Although: Do we have confirmation that that mask was unique to Lhikan? Or could another Toa have used the same shape?)
These quotes were made literal hours apart.
Looks like we might have a case of conflicting canon, then. I think generally newer quotes take precedent, although that’s starting to get into personal preference. I could go either way, Greg’s wording was vague enough.
Maybe, but I was just going straight from BS01. It specifically uses an image of the Stars Hau and lists it as an “adaptave Hau”. So for the sake of being a purist I went with that.
Nope. I checked that earlier.
Do you perchance have a link to either one?
Ah, that doesn’t work with the Rode’s reason I gave. I’ll just change that to “Not specified to be unique” then.
I am looking as we speak, but I also know that they have been posted in this thread various times, if you feel like digging way back.
Uh, yes it does?
4000 years ago could be before “at least 1300”.
…
I’m supposed to be good at math, I’m a physics grad student.
The Hagah were formed between 79,100 years ago and 1,300 years ago. The only reason we know it was “at least 1,300” is because that’s when the raid on Destral took place. We also know that the Brotherhood began forming Hagah teams soon after the Matoran Civil War. There is also “No One Gets Left Behind”, which takes place at least 7,000 years ago, and Norik doesn’t appear to be part of his Hagah team yet. However, “over 7,000 years ago” could be anytime between 79,100 and 7,000 years ago, which is quite a wide window.
I personally think the formation of Teridax’s Hagah team is old, certainly before Lhikan became a Toa, but there’s no specific confirmation.
https://board.ttvchannel.com/t/art-poll-the-last/55065/61?u=willess12
Found the compendium of quotes on the inika masks. He initially says they were the same shape, so I’d say that would be canon.
Edit: Although, if a hagah moc uses a 3d inorganic inika mask, it could be a variant shape, like Lhikan’s Hau.
I didn’t find what I was looking for, but I found something even better:
A visual representation of a standard Elda.
I couldn’t find it from the link… could you screenshot it for me?