No, I’m saying they’re not the target group of a canon contest, because obviously they would not care that much about what is and isn’t canon.
You do not invite people from the next municipality over to vote on local municipal matters - because these don’t really affect them, so what can they be expected to make a well-founded vote for?
It’s not their fault, but it is simply the truth here.
That happened to me once
Be careful, Gil. I know what you mean but it sounds like something worse.
If I’m right, you’re basically saying if someone is voting for an entry because it looks cool with no consideration of whether it fits the character, that’s a problem. Which I agree with. But I assume (or at least sincerely hope) most people aren’t doing that.
Um…
Wrong.
So wrong.
I care.
It’s why I’m bothering to argue. Because I care about the canon contests. And 90% of my MOCs are specifically not canon-compliant and intentionally so. I like to build.
Right. Sure.
You just lost a lot of ground. I’m in the same Bionicle community as you and I care just as much about the canon - but I’m not telling you to pack up and leave because you have ‘no business with these contests’ just because you have a headcanon.
Come on, dude.
I’m not advocating to, and I’m not even sure what you’re arguing.
You want to be compliant with a strict set of rules, but don’t want to be restricted by those rules…seems counterintuitive, and frankly you’d be better off making your own canon to do what you want, which a lot of us already do because it’s fun.
I’m saying you don’t have to.
It’s only the former. This is Lego, ■■■■ it. The whole point is to make ■■■■ up and do what you like.
They can still do so, but ignorance is anything but a virtue.
Because it’s contrived. It’s a cage you built for yourself.
Have you not considered that maybe we want these contests for multiple reasons or–heaven forbid–do multiple different things with our MOCs? Canon-compliancy can be fun. So can non-compliancy. Why do we have to choose a side? I ignore canon 99% of the time because I don’t like it, but I still want these contests. Who are you to say they’re not for me? You complain about other people forcing canon upon you, and then you complain that a lot of us have no right to participate?
So do I. I hate genderlocked elements and most of the story beats and pretty much all of the villains in Bionicle except for a few. Canon is a hot mess and it’s already really specific and restrictive. I’ve made one canon-compliant MOC in my entire adult life, and it was just for a collab, and you know what? The restrictions bred creativity. I found something because I had a lack of freedom.
Canon is not oppression. Even if I concede that the inability to do whatever you want is a con to these contests, it is far outweighed by the fact that rules breed challenges.
This but unironically. It’s been fun otherwise.
I think that, currently, one of the best arguments against the contests are still fan projects like Red Star Games (RSG) and other 3D modelers. I bet @Gilahu and others who are actually involved with RSG can speak more on this than I can, but these contests directly affect not only what they consider canon, but their actual monetary profit. MOCs of characters aren’t that big of an issue, since, as others have said, revamps have been done all the time. However, RSG has created and sells masks that we haven’t seen before in canon, and they try their hardest to remain canon compliant. So far, it hasn’t caused much trouble, as they hadn’t modelled a Mask of Creation at the time of Artakha’s contest, and while they do have a Mask of Psychometry, it wasn’t branded as Helryx’s specifically, and so they can continue to use it for other characters. However, if/when we get to the Mangai (Nidhiki, Tuyet, and perhaps others if the community so decides), it will directly interfere with RSG’s ‘Vangaurd’ line of masks, which are specifically for the Mangai.
RSG can technically opt to allow them to be used in the contests, but this would force them to provide the models for free, and thus lose any profit they might’ve received otherwise. And if they choose not to, then by default the masks that become canon for the Mangai cannot be RSG’s, and thus it could increase disinterest with their masks, which would also cost them money.
Regardless of your views on them, fan initiatives like RSG are a big part of what has been keeping Bionicle alive all these years. They don’t get paid much from their models, and deserve more, not less. They have to pay their artists and modelers, so if RSG loses money from these contests, RSG can’t pay them, and most likely will become less active because of it. In the short term, sure, it may seem like these contests are a good way of getting the community as a whole active and participating in the franchise again, but in the long term, I think it could be really detrimental.
Ok, ok, let me rephrase this somewhat, I of course jumped ahead a bit too much, leaving out something important:
It’s of course always a combination of MOC and lore. And of course saying “this is not canon compatible but I like it” is valid.
However, there is undeniably a certain faction that actively deviates from canon for various reasons such like dislike of certain aspects or strong headcanons they want to realize. Which is all fine in itself.
But to me there is a fundamental difference between earnestly saying “This is character X as depicted in canon, but I actively choose to make character X look very different in core aspects with my MOC of them” and “This is character X in canon, but I don’t care about that - this is them now as my MOC, doesn’t matter if it’s fundamentally different”
This second one communicates to me a general disregard of canon, and as such I see people who act like it as perfectly suited for all things they want to do, but unsuited for judging what should be canon, as they place an entirely different value on it and have an entirely different connection to it.
Just like in any other field.
I’m the first to admit that I’m probably not suited to make a well-founded vote when the next elections for the mayor of my hometown take place. Simply because I don’t care on that level.
We do not. But the canon contests enforce narrowing down the choice for canon-compliancy dramatically.
I want to be compliant with the rules (canon) that have remained basically unchanged for ten years, but believe that intentionally leaving gaps for creative people to fill is a good idea. But because I’m a fan of the canon material, I want to respect it by not contradicting it when I fill those gaps. What’s counterintuitive about that?
Except I’ve staked my creative output in the Bionicle community for the last five years on continuing and expanding canon. To abandon canon compliance would be like divorcing a spouse.
But I want to. For the aforementioned reasons.
You know you’re literally saying a canon is not a ruleset? If I want to make something compliant with canon, I have to abide by what canon says. That’s what a ruleset is.
And as only evidenced by the censors, you’re being deliberately inflammatory and unreasonable.
I was going to argue against this but it’s not really relevant.
Genuine question: what do you think my argument actually is? Because when you argued with this point, you didn’t actually contradict the headcanon argument at all. You just gave a reason why there’s a silver lining to invalidating headcanons:
If you really think my argument is baseless, explain specifically why or read some Kierkegaard. My argument is based on the one used to explain the rationality behind belief/value structures. I sincerely hope you don’t want to go down that road.
By all means disagree that invalidating headcanons is sufficient to require the contests to stop (which in this instance was not my argument anyway). If that’s all you’re arguing, we have no issue.
Don’t people usually get banned when they consistently swear on here?
Also something I’m honestly curious about:
Does anyone know of a single semi-large fandom public vote to define something canon that was not a massive storm of heated arguments ending in a good deal of major dissatisfaction with the outcome?
Feel free to prove me wrong, but I can’t imagine it.
From my (admittedly limited) experience that just doesn’t seem to be humanly possible. Which for example politics also confirm to me time and again.
When was the last time that someone has expressly stated that belief? Or the first time?
Or any time?
Most who build their own version of Tahu, as example, are doing so to build their own version of Tahu. If canon didn’t tell them what Tahu looked like, they couldn’t make a variation of it to have as their own.
Those in the camp you and Hazash are in get ruffled when helryx has a depiction and all the previous conceptions you made about your headcanon are now ruined, but… You’re in the minority. Even for those who care about canon, this is a benefit, not a hindrance. Now you know for certain what Helryx looks like so there’s no guesswork, no debates, there’s a definitive version - the ultra purists can now construct their own for their collection and the casual fan can make variations for their headcanon universe.
The only person who loses is the one who already decided exactly what Helryx looked like. My version of Helryx I accepted was not and would never be the canon Helryx, and guess what? I’m not changing it because there’s a canon version because mine was never it to begin with.
More often than not, people make headcanons to be different from the status quo. I don’t understand why your headcanon is the status quo to you, or why finally having clarity is so destructive to the community as a whole, but please don’t respond by saying I’m not the target audience or that I have no business here or whatnot.
Yes. The Artakha contest.
You’re obviously upset, and maybe so is Reddit. But people seemed pretty happy with the outcome from what I saw. Maybe you’ve got the rest of the community on speed dial so if you can get consensus there please let me know.
Otherwise… I’m officially officially bowing out. The arguments in favor of canning the canon contest are getting weak and taking stabs at the community as a whole, and SirKeksalot is busy absolutely destroying the entire discussion, so before any fallout (or before staff locks the topic again) I’m gonna seek refuge in the kakapo topic.
I’ll be back once voting opens. Peace.
A very good question 
I am however very happy with the ‘art being canonised’ system. Because so far, I’ve been dissatisfied with the winning MOCs but pretty satisfied with the winning art. Even if we don’t need an art portion to adhere to BS01’s stipulation for every contest, I think all contests should have them.
Why can’t you just see that my subjective opinion is the correct one??
Why should everything have so many layers?
Just to put this out there…
I agree that this is probably true.
And I also feel that myself and Gilahu have diverged in opinion in the last few hours.
My ‘issue of the day’ is now convincing people that people who don’t like their headcanons being invalidated aren’t idiots for thinking so. This is no longer about persuading people that the contests should end because of this. I’m just tired of people not understanding on a fundamental level what the headcanon debate comes down to.
We’ve run into this debate time and time again, and I doubt I’m alone in feeling alienated from the community because people fail to understand (and in some cases, empathise with) our perspective. We now even have Keksalot resorting to borderline bannable behaviour because (giving him the benefit of the doubt) he presumably thinks our perspective is so untenable that it warrants that.
I will try one last time to sum up what the headcanon debate is all about, using an example I’ve used before:
Suppose you played Skyrim and built an elaborate backstory for your female Argonian Dragonborn, and when TES6 comes along, Bethesda confirms through character dialogue that the Dragonborn was a male Nord. All those hours you spent playing Skyrim and building a backstory are, you feel, now invalidated - because you put so much time and passion into your character, who you treated as the next best thing to canonical.
The reason Bethesda don’t canonise really anything about their protagonists is because they know how much people get invested in their headcanons.
Now the canon contests are not totally analogous here. We know Helryx isn’t male or is a lizard, but people who build headcanons do decide smaller things like mask shape, armour, etc. But these are still things people care about. And for those that built their headcanons because they assumed they would never get a canon depiction: they are completely entitled to feel disheartened when the contests come around and another design wins. Some (perhaps most) people who have great passion for their headcanons can learn to live with this, but it will always cause some measure of distress. And some people, like me, can’t just say “well this is my Helryx and I say she’s canon”. We want to abide by canon because that’s our passion: to respect and flesh out canon.
You can’t persuade me, Gilahu, or some others that this is an unreasonable way of interacting with canon. Look at the example I gave for the Elder Scrolls games and you’ll see what I mean. Please just respect the fact that new canon content does cause distress, and it’s more than enough to make some people feel disheartened by the idea of canon contests.
I will learn to live with my headcanons being undone. If the last few months have told you anything, it’s that I’m not unreasonable. I’ve played devil’s advocate for the opposing side many times. And I’ve conceded to things which have been overruled. Just be empathetic and respectful, as I have always done the same.
Hey wait a minute 
Because you’re WRONG and it’s ACTUALLY MINE!!!
…Looks like I’m un-bowed out again. Let’s make this short.
In a fandom which relishes new info about said fandom like Eljay relishes part 43093 in black, forming an entire perspective on info and making gigantic efforts to cement that perspective with the knowledge that at some point in the future it may completely change - and then protesting said change because you in particular have to rewrite everything - is unwise. You chose to treat canon that way and to create headcanons that way in the community which revels at new info and which actively encourages the discovery of such.
It’s not the canon contest’s fault there, it’s Greg’s - he made the statement that genders were only locked to element as a way of doing things and they could be different elements if a Turaga chose to do so. I don’t recall many applecarts being upset over that revelation. And he does this sort of thing at the community’s request - there’s a whole ask topic about it with tons of new info which will really ruin headcanons. You can choose to not read it, but you could also choose to ignore the canon contests.
It really hasn’t come off that way, but do consider this (which I’ve mentioned before): I’ve waited for this opportunity for 15 YEARS and the parade is being rained on because a few headcanons will have to be adjusted to allow characters to appear different, when you’ve already adjusted Helryx’s appearance to fit your headcanon again:
If the headcanon’s going to change to fit the new info… Why should I be afraid to have the contests?
But as earlier comments implied, I clearly don’t belong in this discussion.
And with that, I’m departing again.
Man, you replied with a wall of text and are surprised when I show up again?
At the end of the day, we’re all arguing over a ten-year old line of children’s toys, and while yes, that’s immature and childish, we’re all ultimately fans of the same thing and should be able to put aside our egomania and opinionation as a result of our shared love for the aforementioned children’s toys.
… right?
nO SHUT UP REEEEEEEEEEEE
my opinioNation has a crippling overseas debt
just nuke em
I have nothing to say here, I just wanted to add to the number of people typing.