True. Like if Metallics are on the Main 6 elements. This would affect Tuyet, Nidhiki and any possible future contest like Naho or Dume. I think that I may be overthinking a decent chunk of the designs of characters for stuff like the Under Armor theory but this one is decently significant.
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Idk I feel like the ruleset could lowkey just be “So like, she’s a Toa of Water and she probably has a Barbed Broadsword, feel free to include the Nui Stone if you want”.
I’m using hyperbole here, obviously, but like … a lot of it doesn’t really … matter? Like the designers weren’t considering any of these things when they were designing the sets; we’re gleaning rules (or at least giving our own opinions on how they should be gleaned) based on sets that weren’t designed to comply with those rules. Seems a little redundant.
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I would like to disagree, mostly because I’ve studied design for almost 2 years now at an university level and there is alot more going into designing than just what looks cool especially when it comes to product design.
A lot of people don’t realize that there is a lot of science behind design nor that its a process that can take years of back and forths constantly changing and improving on itself.
Most of the issues most likely arise from a disconnect between story team, Greg answers and designers but in general the toys came first then the story but to sit and say that the designers did not have a clue what they were doing is very disrespectful. If that were the case all officially released toa builds shouldn’t have defineable similarities in proportions. Parts would not have been created to look good with each other or share design elements. Bionicle would not be recognizeably Bionicle and even the fact that this scale works (Kinda):
Should be evidence enough that they knew exactly what they were doing. With the exception of the Dh, Hordika and Nuva most of these sets contrary to popular belief can stand next to each other and still be considered the rough same height even though some of them are more off scale than others.
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I agree.
Good thing that’s not what I said.
I said the designers didn’t design the sets with canon in mind. Coincidentally, you did as well.
Since the designers didn’t have canon in mind, it seems futile to use obscure abstractions derived from the sets to inform canon.
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I can kinda get what Winger’s saying here. Like, is it “canon” that Toa of water don’t naturally have metallic armor, or is that simply how the 2 unmutated Water Toa we’ve seen were designed*? Is it “canon” that every Toa has butt gears, or is that just a stylistic choice by the design team, combined with one piece being used for 95% of Toa sets? Some of this stuff is silly to debate.
That’s not to say that there aren’t rules that are canon and therefore should be followed. Like, Nidhiki’s colors: that’s not something that was suggested by other Air Toa sets, but something stated by Greg. Tuyet’s weapon was something written by Greg in a story serial. These things should be enforced. Whether Tuyet has gunmetal armor or crotch gears, however, is fine being left to voters.
Heck, we’ve already gotten two fanmade Toa who break the gearbutt rule: Helryx and Krakua.
*and also Helryx, but she wasn’t designed by a lego designer.
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Not to do some crazy quote-nesting here Tarkur but that is not what he said. This whole thread is getting extremely pedantic rn, by the way. This talk about three-toned Toa and Matoran color schemes needs a rest. Tuyet is a Toa of Water with a mask of unknown shape who might have a sword. That’s it.
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If something is stated in-text, or by greg with a “yes/no” kind of definitive, 100% answer, then it is canon. Anything canon, we should absolutely mandate, which can sometimes lead to niche edge cases (Pouks’ mask).
However, if something is implied, or can be infered indirectly, or greg says “maybe”, “probably”, “likely”, etc, then it is up to interpretation. Maybe your interpretation is “yes”. Maybe your interpretation is “no”. Maybe you prefer one or the other. But neither is canon, until we have a canon-confirmed tuyet/nidhiki/lariska moc.
I get that a lot of people prefer one interpretation over the other, but I think so much of the debate happening in this topic is kind of happening because people are conflating their preferences with canon.
Some of the requested mandates, be it specific color distribution, or specific build, or what lower torso piece to use, or whether or not a mask variant is allowed, feel like sidestepping the voting process alltogether. If you want a certain color distribution, vote for that. If you think no one will build it, then you should. But mandating that Nidhiki be completely monochromatically green or whatever is not stated anywhere in text. It’s just stating what you want to vote for.
As stated succinctly by KDNX:
If anyone finds a yes/no answer that greg gave that adds any specifics to that list, then by all means, we have to find it, and have to include it. But let’s not try to argue for more restrictions that aren’t actually mandated by existing canon.
Also, to be clear: this isn’t directed at any one person. I feel like the “people conflating their preference with canon” observation goes for a lot of people, and a lot of debate in this particular topic.
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Technically, we do have a Greg Quote saying that Nidhiki is “just green”, and comparing it to Lewa and Matau. What that means will be a headache to define, but it has been stated.
But yeah, there’s no reason to restrict it to any particular shade of green, or a limited number of shades. There’s nothing saying Nidhiki can’t have all 12 shades of Lego green at the same time, or however many there are. Or he could have just one.
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I worded that very poorly. You did a much better job of saying what I meant, thank you.
Also, to be clear (even though I think you in particular got this): Nidhiki’s color was just an example I was bringing in for the larger point.
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Hey sorry gotta cut in here since we actually know what shades of Green. Nidhiki is called “Emerald” throughout BOADH and in Greg Quotes. “Emerald” is also used by only 5 other characters: Matau, Lewa, Karzahni and Zaktan. Therefore the current list of colors that are canonically “Emerald” is Lime, Mata Green, Metru Green and Sand Green. Lime is also considered a shade of Green, as I stated above in another post. Yes Nidhiki could technically use a new shade of green, however considering we’ve only seen Matoran in canon using Lime, Mata Green and Metru Green, it would be doubtful.
I have no idea if Turquoise is considered Green but I personally will not vote for a Turquoise Nidhiki. It would be really confusing if Lariska and Nidhiki were the same color.
Edit: Here’s every canon Le-Matoran: Gallery:Matoran - BIONICLEsector01
I don’t know if there’s specific rules stating new colors can be used for Toa that weren’t shown for the preexisting Toa of that type in canon, but logically it would be strange if Nidhiki was the only Toa of Air to use Bright Green or Olive Green.
Edit 2: One Emerald Character Reference for Each
Karzahni
“We have no reason to fight, Lesovikk, none at all,” said Karzahni. “Why should I waste my energy on you, when there is easier prey to be found?”
The emerald-hued villain turned his gaze to Sarda, the Ta-Matoran who swam nearby. Dreams of Destruction - BIONICLEsector01 Chapter 4
Nidhiki (Only 2 so I don’t make this too long.)
“His emerald armor was scarred and pitted from countless battles.”
“Nidhiki glanced from the new gash in his emerald armor to his foe.” Birth of a Dark Hunter - BIONICLEsector01
Matau (This one is debatable, but I’ll still include it)
“The Vahki, however, swiftly returned to the emerald, laughing form of Matau.” Saga Guides/Legends of Metru Nui - BIONICLEsector01
Lewa
“Toa Lewa, master of air, rider on the wind, emerald-armored hero in the making, had just discovered something very important: He really, truly, deeply hated the water.” Interlude Three | BIONICLE Legends #10: Swamp of Secrets | Wall of History
Zaktan
“Only the last, an emerald-armored being named Zaktan, proved reluctant to talk with the newcomers.” Chapter Two | BIONICLE Legends #4: Legacy of Evil | Wall of History
Nevermind, was Zaktan.
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Greg has made it clear that “emerald” is just fancy-speak for green, rather than trying to imply any specific shade, or collection of shades:
Besides, even it we did interpret “emerald” as referring to specific colours, how would you mandate it? It’s been applied to both a light green, and a dark green; it’s also been applied to a bright green, and to a muted green. How could you possibly enforce any specific shade when the term has been applied all across the spectrum?
I would consider it green. Heck, it’s been used on Le-Matoran.
He would be the only one that we’ve seen. There have been hundreds, if not thousands of Toa of Air throughout the history of the Matoran Universe, and we’ve seen five of them (six once we have Toa Nidhiki’s appearance).
I see no reason, in general, to limit people to any specific shade(s) of a colour unless the shade has been explicitly specified for a given character.
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Easy. The 4 shades used by the characters described as Emerald. We literally have examples of characters who have been described as Emerald and we know what each of them look like, besides Nidhiki.
Now I will concede on the Emerald part but I think Nidhiki should have to be Metru Green. We know from the Hagah that the color is kept. Using his DH body as reference, along with Roodaka’s mutation Rhotuka spinner not changing the beings color, Nidhiki is Metru Green and one other color.
Both of these statements are assumptions.
I’ll admit that the first assumption is reasonable (though I’m not sure about its enforcibility), but I see no reason to assume that Nidhiki had a second colour.
I’ve learned from experience that people would definitely prefer entries to not be monochrome, but I’ve seen nothing in canon, no matter how explicit, that would indicate whether or not Nidhiki had a second colour besides his primary green.
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Ok and? That has nothing to do with what color he is.
Based on… what, exactly?
Wait until this guy finds out that almost all humans are just one of a few shades of brown…
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Uh yeah it does. Roodaka’s rhotuka was never stated to change the beings color, only shape. Why else would the Rahaga keep their color when transformed? Why would she keep Nidhiki green when any other color could work just as well?
Yeah sorry all of this talk of two-tone and three-tone has got me thinking like that. But I stand by him being at least Metru Green.
The fact we’ve seen Le-Matoran from other islands besides Metru Nui before? Because we’ve seen Lesovikk and Iruini, who aren’t Metru Nui natives but use the same colors? We also know that these Matoran from other islands keep with the color scheme of the Metru/Mata Matoran as well
Geez dude, keep this civil. No need to insult me over Bionicles. By the way, Lariska and Nidhiki aren’t even the same species so the retort doesn’t even make sense.
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This is what I was talking about when I said the thread was getting pedantic. This kind of clarification is not necessary. There’s not an algorithmic reasoning behind Greg’s use of the word “emerald”.
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They were Mutated by HORDIKA venom, not Roodaka. The only 4 creatures we’ve seen mutated by her are, The Rahaga, Nidhiki, a Nui Kopen (not seen) and DH Silence (Unknown species)
This doesn’t even matter to the main point. The main point is Nidhiki is at least Metru Green. I’m done with this arguement.
Yeah it is. They aren’t the same species so there’s no reason for the remark. It was entirely unnecessary to your point
Yes I agreed with you. I’m fine with Emerald being vague. But Nidhiki is at least Metru Green, as it would make literally no sense for Roodaka’s Rhotuka to work differently on him compared to the Hagah.
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Then Roodaka fired her Rhotuka launcher, the spinner striking the living sand and mutating the grains into a swarm of fireflyers
–Federation of Fear, chapter 7.
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Also we know the Rahaga and Nidhiki had colors added or removed. Most Rahaga lost their metallic colors and then got them back when Roodaka mutated them back into Toa. Nidhiki gained silver when mutated.
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We’ve seen literally 7 different size and shape Toa get mutated by the same way. Energized Protodermis and Horidika Venom have a precedent, where every Toa that is mutated by them ends up with similarities. Why would Roodaka work differently?
That doesn’t change it’s effects on Toa. Also she changed a living being into another thing, just like she did to everything else she’s mutated.
Thank you. The Rahaga’s staffs also lost their color, turning silver. Silence also gained silver bits.
The fact is Mutation can be random with what it turns Toa into but they all share the similarity of keeping their color and gaining silver parts.
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