BIONICLE G1 Canon Contests Discussion & Questions

[Mechronus]

@Willess12

It does work differently.

That’s not opinion, that’s fact. Keetongu can undo Hordika Venom. He can’t undo Roodaka mutations. That’s because they’re different things , and they work differently

It’s the strongest form of Mutation that exists, besides the Mask of Mutation. Which by the way can revert Roodaka’s mutation, which makes it in the same vein as Hordika Venom, which also keeps the color of a being:
" The user has control over how the target is mutated, which includes being able to undo other mutations such as those caused by Hordika Venom, Makuta Viruses and Roodaka’s Rhotuka power, but not those caused by Energized Protodermis. In theory, reversing a mutation is more difficult without detailed knowledge of the original mutation"

@TheJerminator

Because Roodaka has conscious control over her spinner’s mutation. In the specific case of Roodaka’s mutations, this statement is incorrect:

Mask of Mutation

Which, as said above, can revert her mutations and also create irreversible mutations.

@TheJerminator

There is also precedent for the possibility of Visorak mutation changing a being’s colour completely:

Savage does complicate this, but unless you have proof he isn’t a Toa of Stone, it would still follow the rule.

@JMSOG

If this is true, then what part of Toa Kualus was orange?

The Rahaga all share Orange eyes, leading me to believe this is connected to that mutation. Part of me is also thinking it has something to do with set design since it’s the strangest color to use instead of, like Grey or Black.

@SirKeksalot

Well, it turned him into an entirely different creature, so it DID work differently. There’s no reason why it couldn’t give him different colors.

Because Mutation in the Matoran universe has never given Toa’s a new color before (Savage is only a possibility until confirmed to not be a ToS). Lesovikk didn’t turn purple from the Pit’s mutation. The Toa Nuva didn’t change their shade of color. Firedracax, while being the single most confusing mutation, is still a shade of red. Saying a concept doesn’t have rules would be disregarding the fact the 99% of all beings mutated keep their color, mutate their bodies and gain silver.

@TheJerminator

Visorak spinners, which themselves are capable of inducing colour change)

Wait where is this confirmed? Besides Savage, I haven’t seen another “maybe” or confirmed.

[TheJerminator]

@Mechronus

It’s the strongest form of Mutation that exists, besides the Mask of Mutation. Which by the way can revert Roodaka’s mutation, which makes it in the same vein as Hordika Venom, which also keeps the color of a being:

This argument is incredibly flawed.

Saying that Roodaka’s spinner must follow the same rules as Hordika Venom just because they can both be undone by something more powerful is like saying a knife is the same as a gun because they can both kill people.

@Mechronus

@TheJerminator

Because Roodaka has conscious control over her spinner’s mutation. In the specific case of Roodaka’s mutations, this statement is incorrect:

@Mechronus

The fact is Mutation can be random with what it turns Toa into

BIONICLEsector01

Mask of Mutation

The Mask of Mutation allows its user to mutate another living being from a distance.[2] The user can also give and take away powers with the mutations.[3][4] However, its user cannot mutate themselves.[5] A mutation caused by the mask is permanent…

Which, as said above, can revert her mutations and also create irreversible mutations.

What are you trying to say here? How does the Mask of Mutation “prove” that Roodaka’s mutations are random?

@Mechronus

but unless you have proof he isn’t a Toa of Stone, it would still follow the rule.

First off, it’s Toa of Earth, not Stone.

Second off, he is, in fact, a Toa of Earth; it was confirmed in a later post.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that it was possible for his colour to have been changed. That statement wasn’t contingent on Savage not being a Toa of Earth.

@Mechronus

The Rahaga all share Orange eyes, leading me to believe this is connected to that mutation.

Yet Nidhiki has green eyes. So are you now arguing that Roodaka’s spinner does work differently?

[Mechronus]

@SirKeksalot

Also, the Nuva and Metru, again, turned partly silver, and Greg says Nidhiki had no silver before, so not only do some mutations change color after all, but the very mutation we’re debating changed Nidhiki’s colors by necessity.

That’s because Mutation can change color from Toa and Matorans bodies to silver. Lesovikk, The Mahritoran and the Hordika all share this. The Rahaga don’t have silver on their bodies because Roodaka explicitly mutated them to look like Rahkshi, while Nidhiki was mutated to be insect like.

@Willess12

First off, I think you have stone and earth confused. Earth is the black one.

Except on Bara Magna. There rock is the black one.

Savage is a Toa of Earth, yes.

Yeah thanks, Earth and Stone always confused me. So Hordika Venom has a 100% color keeping rate then.

[Mechronus]

@TheJerminator

Yet Nidhiki has green eyes. So are you now arguing that Roodaka’s spinner does work differently?

Uh what are you talking about? He has:

Red or Orange. Nidhiki is only shown with Green eyes in the games and technically in the set, as he uses the Vahki head. However the art, set photos and movies all show red or orange.

@TheJerminator

This is another example of Roodaka choosing different colour schemes for her mutations, despite all seven victims being Toa.

They still had silver staffs, this isn’t an exception.

[Willess12]

Honestly, this argument really ties into what I said that Winger said earlier.

@Willess12

Like, is it “canon” that Toa of water don’t naturally have metallic armor, or is that simply how the 2 unmutated Water Toa we’ve seen were designed*? Is it “canon” that every Toa has butt gears, or is that just a stylistic choice by the design team, combined with one piece being used for 95% of Toa sets?

Is it “canon” that mutations can only change to silver, or is it because Lego had a limited color pallete and didn’t want to recolor pieces?

Outside of the other four Toa Hagah, all the mutations we have two forms for were released in the same year, or close to it. Norik was metru red in both forms because both sets were in 05. If Toa Norik came out in 2003, he would’ve been Mata red. If Tahu Nuva were released in 2008, he would’ve been Metru Red, just like his Mistika version.

The reason that all the mutations keep the color isn’t due to some canon rule, it’s because they were sets designed by set designers. We aren’t set designers. If a set designer in 04 made Nidhiki, he would have been Metru Green and used a Metru Torso. But we can build/draw him in mata green and apple green, if we want.

[Mechronus]

@Willess12

Outside of the Rahaga, all the mutations we have two forms for were released in the same year, or close to it. Norik was metru red in both forms because both sets were in 05. If Toa Norik came out in 2003, he would’ve been Mata red. If Tahu Nuva were released in 2008, he would’ve been Metru Red, just like his Mistika version.

The reason that all the mutations keep the color isn’t due to some canon rule, it’s because they were sets designed by set designers. We aren’t set designers. If a set designer in 04 made Nidhiki, he would have been Metru Green and used a Metru Torso. But we can build/draw him in mata green and apple green, if we want.

@JMSOG

I encourage you to vote based on your opinion, but there can absolutely not be a rule invoked because of it.

We objectively do not have enough information to know precisely how color would work here.

Alrighty, I’ll practice what I preach. I’ll be voting for the Nidhiki that I think matches canon as close as possible. No more arguments from me since it’s clear I can’t change your minds.

@TheJerminator

No, definitely in the set. Don’t try to discredit my point.

Look I thought the color was overridden by every other piece of canon besides one set photo and a video game. If it’s green then ok it’s green.

@KDNX

Actually, the Mahritoran were not mutated. They’re naturally silver.

Oh I read this:
“There, Sarda was exposed to the mutagen in the water long enough to be partially reverted to his original, stronger, form.” Sarda - BIONICLEsector01
It never specified what was reverted back and following in suit with Lesovikk, I thought it was the regular color and not the Silver.

@TheJerminator

They were:

Oh ok. Works for me

[StudentScissors]

can we please stop with the pedantic arguments, and trying to push for rules with no real canonical footing. Either get hard proof or don’t bother. TTV has made it abundantly clear they will not be enforcing any rules without explicit greg statements to back them up. All of this debate of hypothetical possibility and canon precedents goes nowhere.

[Racie02]

Yeah, we need to discuss whether the pre-mutated Barraki contests in batch 2 should give Ehlek a breathing helmet

[Eljay]

You had nothing to do with this conversation and your snide remarks added nothing to it. Don’t post like this again. Next time will be in violation of Rule 0.

@StudentScissors

can we please stop with the pedantic arguments, and trying to push for rules with no real canonical footing. Either get hard proof or don’t bother. TTV has made it abundantly clear they will not be enforcing any rules without explicit greg statements to back them up. All of this debate of hypothetical possibility and canon precedents goes nowhere.

Ultimately, this is correct. A lot of people argue for their personal preferences to try and get rules to mandate in their favor. We saw this a lot during the pre-Hagah discussions, and it’s happening again now. We’ve already stated how we’re interpreting Greg’s statement on Nidhiki’s colors, and several of the people involved in this debate acknowledged that and have brought nothing new or substantive to the conversation.

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Evaluate what you’re all saying and whether it’s actually helpful to canon or if it’s just for your own self-interests. It’s easy to identify the latter, and that motive will get disregarded.

@Tarkur, you’ve been doing this again recently. Wind down or your involvement is gonna be a repeat of the Hagah contest.

[RiderBD]

@Mechronus

Roodaka’s mutation Rhotuka spinner not changing the beings color,

Considering the “mutant metal color theory”, isn’t this contradictory?

Oh, please, we already made Artakha,who written grayish green armor, into gun metal and sandgreen.
There is no problem with shading.

[Kanohi_Cantri]

Color is just one of those things people complain about. But how many people are truly going to complain about small alterations? For example, Kualus’ and Bomonga’s upper arm/leg pieces are white and black, contrary to the inspirational models. Yet so far, I haven’t seen anyone build them with these colors.

[Mechronus]

@RiderBD

Considering the “mutant metal color theory”, isn’t this contradictory?

Oh, please, we made Artakha, marked with grayish green armor, into gun metal and sandgreen.
There is no problem with shading.

Edit: Removed so I can bring it up later.

I’m done discussing this stuff for now, until I can make a theory post where everything I’m saying is under the umbrella of a theory. Hope you understand, I’ll try to have it out by Saturday.

[RiderBD]

We’re thinking too much.
Let’s just consider that this is an appearance contest.
Making something good and that many people like. That’s the most important thing.

[Tarkur]

@Eljay

@Tarkur, you’ve been doing this again recently. Wind down or your involvement is gonna be a repeat of the Hagah contest.

I’m well aware, that I was getting heated so I took an almost 24h long self time out. It may not happen again but I will try not too but as long as arguments that indirectly discredits anyones involvement in Bionicle its world and/or canon are gonna resurface then I can’t promise that. However I ask only that you read this and at least tries to understand where I’m coming from.

The argument provided by Winger yesterday was one such argument that I found indirectly discredits the work of the designers of the line by assuming that the designers played no part in Bionicle’s visual style or world building or that what the designers made had no lasting impact or cosideration for how what they created impacted canon. Which is simply just untrue for several factors mainly the design of new parts or the ability to keep proportions consistent between members of the same species. However unrelated to my point I’ll admit that I could’ve phrased myself better in the heat of the moment yesterday.

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Edit: Yet I can still met Winger halfway and say that the designers probably didn’t consider any of the Greg quotes specifically related to characters Greg introduced but they most likely did considered canon and making the world consistent when designing the sets.

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But for now I’m going to take another undetermined lenght of abscence because the discussions in hear are for either the most uneccesary things or makes me torn between 2 of my passions in life and if one of them is going to result in the other being thrown under the bus, I’m considering “Why I should even care about Bionicle or its canon?” which is unfortunate since Bionicle and its canon was what got me into my other passion design. However enough with the self deprication my leave is due time now.

[RiderBD]

Okay, I’ also suggested some theories before.
Basically, I want to see more diverse things.(Maybe not, but most of the time, I’m trying to do that)
For example, in the case of Bakama Huna, which I suggested, I wanted to told everyone that it was not to change the standard Canon, but to suggest that other forms of Huna could exist.
i know There’s a lot of controversy over the 3D print,
What’s wrong with that? bonkle designers always made new and interesting things.
Greg tried to help create a wonderful universe.
Now we just do it.

In the case of color, I don’t think it’s impossible even though I don’t like dull tuyet. It’s simply my preference.

Nevertheless, I saw a lot of Tuyet MOC in dark color armor that I thought was cool.
i acknowledged that it’s better than what I made.
I also saw the most ideal MOC sword I imagined.
I’m ready to vote for it.

Later, I’ll display it with Lhikan and Nidhiki, and if i still think it’s too dark…, I’ll just change socket to medium blue. That’s all. It won’t hurt anyone.
I know that even if I take a picture and post it, someone won’t say “you for ruining Canon.”

Canon Contest is not a means of canonizing own theory.
theory should be to inform the possibilities.

Also, bionicle’s variety had increased every year (forget 2010…).
Why should we be more narrow-minded in continuing it?

Oh, yes. I know. Of course, everyone here is very proud of their MOC.
The Canon Contest is a place where each person’s EGO conflicts.
Just don’t force it here right now.
If someone have a great theory and MOC, just make it. And participate in the contest. If everyone accepts it, it’s your victory.

I also want to win… Who would hate that…

dang drink… I’m saying tooooo much…

[Bukkey]

@RiderBD

dang drink… I’m saying tooooo much…

I know a good bar. I think that we can have good drink.

[darkbrick999]

People saying Nidhiki should be Metru green pre-mutation because Iruni was Metru green pre-mutation should also keep in mind that the two mutation clearly worked differently to some degree, considering Iruni became a shriveled rakshi-thing, and Nidhiki became a giant spider monster.

Dark green does make sense from a stealth standpoint, but it’s not canonically supported. Technically, of you’re going by Hagah rules, Toa Nidhiki should be Metru-green and trans-bright-green, because of his vahki head-piece’s color.

[InChandyWeTrust]

Frankly, none of us are doing any favors by obsessing over the specific shades of a character’s armor and/or whether or not they had armor of whatever color. Unless I’m mistaken and there is a quote to confirm this, is it really true that Nidhiki had no silver armor at all just because his armor was described as “emerald” (iirc Zaktan is also described this color and his chest is gold)? We know his mask isn’t silver, but that doesn’t tell me that about his shoulder pads, chest plate, or shin guards (i.e. does he follow Lhikan’s armor pattern or not?). Spoiler alert: My Nidhiki features no silver, but not at all for this reason. If we’re this obsessive over shades of colors now, I rather dread how the conversation will turn when we approach Varian, who has been described as azure (at the time, just a fancy shade of blue, but one that has since actually earned a place in Lego’s color palette only after CCBS took over).

@darkbrick999

Technically, of you’re going by Hagah rules, Toa Nidhiki should be Metru-green and trans-bright-green, because of his vahki head-piece’s color.

I have to massively disagree with this argument since Nidhiki’s mutation was absolutely nothing like the Hagah’s apart from the outcomes being vaguely bug-like. Also most people are probably gonna use Metru green anyway, canonically supported or not since that’s probably the easiest shade of green to work with in G1.

[RiderBD]

@InChandyWeTrust

I rather dread how the conversation will turn when we approach Varian, who has been described as azure

There’s a good color check pic

(It looks like pastel blue in the middle)

I think the color close to azure is medium blue.

That’s why I made my varian medium blue.

[Racie02]

@InChandyWeTrust

is it really true that Nidhiki had no silver armor at all

Yep.

3. Toa Nidhiki is green and silver, correct?
3) No, he’s just green. He’s a Toa of Air. Toa Iruini is green and silver.

3. You also said Nidhiki was all-green, and not Silver/Green. Wouldn’t the latter be more logical, seeing as Lhikan is Gold/Red?
3) Nope. Because Nidhiki didn’t come from the same place Lhikan did, so no reason he would need to be dual-colored like Lhikan. After all, neither Matau nor Lewa is dual-colored, so why would any other Toa of Air be?

When Nidhiki a Toa, we know he wore a mask of Stealth in the same shape as Toa Nuparu. Now, was Nidhiki mask the same silver color and did he have the blue visor?
No, it would have been green

(Credit to dag for the line of quotes)

Also, he definitely has green shoulder armour.

“…the other sliced his right shoulder armour as it went by… Nidhiki glanced from the new gash in his emerald armour…” -Birth of a Dark Hunter