Do you not know what “taking something out of context” means?
If that’s what you believe, why make it optional?
You’re the one who’s been arguing for following precedent. I’m just pointing out that following the precedent means mandating the sword.
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I fail to see how this is the case. Also, kindly look at my message above, I think “let’s not make it so less people can enter” is a good argument for sword-optional.
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How does asking people to draw a sword prevent them from entering?
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I meant in the MOC portion, as evidenced by the previous sentence.
You took what I said out of its context, and quoted it in another context.
At this point, we’re not even arguing about Tuyet or the sword anymore, and it’s not helping anyone. I know I said I would try to step away from this conversation, so I will do that now, and I suggest you do too.
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Precedent doesn’t mean “do everything exactly as we did before”, it means “apply the rules the same way we did before”.
Since the canon backing for Tuyet’s tool is shakier than the evidence for past tools, it can’t be expected that the exact same ruleset should be crafted.
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I think making the sword optional is pretty much the objectively best option, it pleases the most parties without compromising anything and that should be the goal.
Having the sword be optional means the pro-sword people can have a sword in their moc and are happy and the people who are anti-sword are also happy since they can choose not to include a sword.
Pretty much the only logical and fair argument I can think of is “Well the sworded mocs are gonna win easily” to which I say voting has and will always be biased, People are either gonna vote for the most canonically accurate moc or the coolest moc that’s just how voting is in this case. and at the end of the day people are gonna vote for the better Tuyet not the better BB, If your moc/drawing is without the sword but looks better then the sworded ones people will vote for it. The sword doesn’t guarantee you a win.
Mandating the sword means the anti-sword people are upset and not having it at all means the pro-sword people are upset both are worse options.
Also by having it be optional it means the 1000+ post debate over if Tuyet did, didn’t, or kinda wielded a sword is pretty much pointless, don’t believe she had the sword? cool just don’t include it, believe she did include it? also cool add it to your moc. If she wins with a sword then she did have it and if she wins without one then she didn’t have one.
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I agree that perhaps we should end our discussion for now, but first, I want to clear this up.
Taking you out of context would be claiming that you said your own argument was splitting hairs, and quoting your words as “proof”. That isn’t what I did.
All I did was use the words “that’s splitting hairs”. Just like you did. I was using the same phrase you used. I didn’t take anything out of context; I could just as easily have typed the words myself instead of quoting you, and it would have had the exact same meaning. Obviously, you don’t think your argument is splitting hairs, and I never said you did.
Like I said, I quoted you because it’s a thing in arguments to point out “hey, those words you said about this also apply to this, too.” It’s something people do all the time, and it has nothing to do with taking things out of context.
You said I was being childish. I don’t think I was. I said a phrase you said, and afterwards I have calmly explained what I was doing, even trying to keep my sarcasm to a minimum in doing so. The worst thing I did was quote you saying “how is that difficult to understand”. That was a little childish, I’ll admit.
And lastly: I’m sorry. Even though I wasn’t taking your words out of context, I’m sorry I made it seem like I was doing that. That wasn’t what I was trying to do, and it’s only made this argument more complicated, since now I’m replying to that more than your actual points. So I sincerely apologize.
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A), it’s the art portion that matters for canonicity, not the MOC. I don’t think anyone in the pro-sword camp would be upset with a swordless MOC as long as the art has it, especially since the art sword can be 3D modeled and given to the model for those who want to display it. Though I could be wrong.
B) Helryx required the mace and shield for the MOC portion, and if that was the only thing people didn’t have the parts for, tough luck. As Eljay and Meso have stated before, the contests are not supposed to be “easy”. (Also, I know Helryx’s mace could be argued as “more canon” than the Barbed Broadsword, but my argument here is in regards to accessablity in general.)
C) There are literally thousands to ways to build a sword with Lego pieces, and it seems highly doubtful that the inclusion of that weapon would exclude anyone looking to enter, anyway.
My stance is for a Hagah-style consent system, anyway, where the builder can use a stand-in sword if they don’t think their’s is “barbed” enough.
Counterpoint: anti-sword people don’t lose anything if it’s mandated. If Tuyet with a sword wins, people can and will still build/draw/write her without it. Only pro-sword people lose, if a Tuyet without the sword wins, because then we never get to see it.
I think I might’ve proposed something like this before, since the BB is so detailed and unique, unlike just a “shield”, “mace”, spear", or “hammer”. Really, Helryx’s “spiked mace” is probably the most detailed weapon we’ve had (I mean, aside from the Hagah shields of course, but we already knew what they looked like).
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That’s fair however as has been seen time and time again in previous contests most people aren’t contempt? content? to take the “just ignore it” route so by making it optional means you don’t have to worry about that. and I’d argue that one concession that comes down to random chance is better than a concession that immediately bars and upsets a group of people.
And sure the pro-sword people loose out if a swordless Tuyet wins but I think that’s the only concession that has to be made and as evidenced by my previous point it’s a lot easier to add the sword and make it your headcanon then it is to remove/ignore the sword.
At the absolute “worse” she wins without a sword and either she didn’t wield one or she did and we just don’t know what it looks like. And it’s just a weapon she debatably wielded for a very short amount of time. This isn’t some important artifact like the Mask of Creation or the Staff of Artahka, not having it’s appearance isn’t integral to her character like Artakha’s Mask of Creation or integral to itself like the Staff of Artakha.
The Nui Stone is objectively more important to her than a BB she may have wielded in a AU. iirc her entire character is about getting the Nui Stone and she’s always seen with some tie to the Nui Stone, that’s what we should be having a debate over not her weapon, and even then I’m pretty sure the commonly accepted appearance of the Nui Stone is just glowing red rock.
Also, I just noticed this:
This is actually a good point. A lot of the Hagah entries had trouble contending with trying to show the Hagah themselves, those huge shields, and the spears, all in a decent pose. There’s probably a reason many people neglected the shields.
I don’t think this will be as much of an issue for Tuyet. The Nui stone is kinda small, not really any bigger than her hand, and the sword… well, we don’t know how big it is, but swords are also much easier to pose dynamically and portray then the Hagah shields.
The thing is, it is possible to remove/ignore the sword. If it’s not there, it’s impossible to have the full canon version.
Oh yeah, don’t get me wrong, no matter what we do, someone is gonna be upset about it. I’m not going to pretend no one will complain about the sword being mandated. I just think that mandating both the sword and the Nui Stone is the best way to get an end result that satisfies as many people as possible: those who want to see the sword, those who want to see the Nui stone, and those who just want to see Tuyet.
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The metal armor thing had no basis in story bit the rest was implemented to keep parity with the other metru build in the artstyle of the Bionicle toys, which greg canonically stated were metru builds anyway. Whom still ended up as 75% modded messes and 75% uneccessary 3d printed masks. With the last 25% consisting of comidically wacky proportion. Imho
Again this argument was presented multiple times in previous contest to which the result was always “No, I can’t ignore it” the people arguing against it find it hard to ignore the canon appearance of the thing being canonized and that’s just how it is. And I wouldn’t say the sword is part of her “full” cannon look, did we see every tool and weapon Helryx, Artakha or the Haga used? no. Does that mean they aren’t the full cannon appearance? I wouldn’t say so and I feel the same would be the same with you.
As I say in my previous (edited) post the Nui Stone is by all regards more important and if this was about the Nui Stone I could get the push to make it mandated but it’s about the sword and I don’t see why it’s so important and how making it mandated is the better option when making it optional not only covers the same things as mandating it but also pleases the anti-sword group.
I wanted a Hagah Team I wouldn’t mind yet I’m minding like 80-90% of their design choices. We can’t have what we want. I would have preferred more rules about the build in the hagah contest.
I understand the want for more freedom but the fact the fact we can’t go one contest with a creative challenge is just as petty as I believe my hate for bomonga comes across to the people of r/bioniclelego’s discord server
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I have a good idea.
We can postpone the Tuyet contest to the next, hold another contest in the meantime, and continue discussing BB sword further. Or in the meantime, you can send countless emails until Greg answers.
/s
How could creating a sword from scratch possibly be easier than just ignoring a sword?
If no sword is canonized, then anyone who wants to see the sword has to come up with their own, and even then it won’t be canon.
If a sword is canonized, then anyone who doesn’t want Tuyet to have the sword can just not attach it to their model. Or not include it when they picture Tuyet while reading.
Even if you’re concerned about people who want the sword ambiguous so that they can come up with their own, can’t they just headcanon their own version anyways? I’m not usually one to say “just headcanon it”, but you had no problem presenting that as an option for people who want a sword if one doesn’t get canonized.
We aren’t necessarily debating her weapon because we think it’s more important, but rather because there is more to debate.
There’s nothing to really talk about with the Nui Stone: it is very clear that she has it, and the descriptions are very explicit in the limited information they present. The sword, on the other hand, is steeped in unclear quotes and alternate timeline shenanigans.
This is true, but you also have to acknowledge the other side of “canon purism”. Just as some people (including me) refuse to ignore canon information, there are others (also including me) who refuse to fill in gaps with headcanon or any other non-official information.
You say that “no sword” is a better option since people won’t have to headcanon-ignore official material, yet you also tell the people who want the sword to just “headcanon your own”; it’s contradictory.
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My bad, I worded that poorly. I didn’t mean that a Tuyet without the sword isn’t fully canon, just that we wouldn’t have the canonical depiction of the sword.
I didn’t notice until just now that you edited your post, so I’m gonna reply to it real quick.
look, that’s fine if you think that. I, personally, think it is an integral part of her character. The fact that she chose to use that over any weapon that she could have used says something about her, just like Helryx’s use of a mace, or Nidhiki’s use of a scythe, tells us something about them.
But regardless, if people don’t feel it’s that important: they lose nothing if it’s there or not. Only people who do think that it’s important, like myself, stand to lose anything if it isn’t included in her canon appearance.
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I would argue there is something to loose even if it’s not obvious to us otherwise people like @Dag wouldn’t have argued so hard for making the sword optional/not include it at all and there wouldn’t be any debate over it’s inclusion at all.
I get that it’s easy to say “just ignore it” Hell I was even an advocate of this argument but I realize that a large group of people having a hard time ignoring canon or allowing certain parts of canon but ignoring others and whilst sure that may seem dumb or a “them” problem the fact is that’s how it is and we have to deal with it.
Don’t get me wrong I want the sword canonized as much as the next guy but I’m willing to make the concession that we may not get it due to a lack of concrete evidence and it’s debatable importance. Are you?
Also if it’s so easy to ignore it allegedly than why is it so hard not to shouldn’t it be mostly equal? Seems a little hypocritical to tell one group to ignore it then say it’s impossible for your group to do the same, no?
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I do this too but for me visual canon is just as important as written canon. If the set or other media portrays things one way it does not mean it can be ignored. Take B1 battle droids from star wars for example their most notable features are their joints and head so when they made the B2 super Battle Droid and the Commando Droid those features were kept and worked into the new design. And similar things can be said about a lot of material in star wars canon and star wars canon has just as much mix of written and visual canon if not more than bionicle but still manages to keep a consistent design between its members of the same species without copy pasting. With maybe the exception of the obviosly 50s vespa inspired speeders from the book of boba and that is probably the greatest example of why what has been previously established as canon in terms of design should be carried over and worked with or else it will look weird and out of place.
Just to finish up this tangent and because this isn’t really canon but interesting to discuss imo we can infer that LEGO always had a consistent world in mind when making the very first Bionicle sets. As per Faber(whom seem to be all over the place during the work of Bionicle) himself it was important for the marketing of the line that the commercial had animations of key action shots as if taken from a movie. Even if this was just made for the first wave the mindset carried through throughout G1 and was one of arguably its main selling point. Without any major changes to the characters themselves any kid can pick up their favorite Toa or Enemy of the week and be directly transported into the world of Bionicle. The world itself was also pretty clearly thought of in some of his many concept arts from throughout the years but I digress
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